Re: OT: The so called "steep learning curve" of vim...

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 15:04:15 -0700, Charlie Kester said:
> On 10/01/2012 12:48 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> > On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> >> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
> >> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
> >> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to
> >> simple albeit new concepts?
> >
> > I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
> > confronted with the editor without any previous experience.
> >
> > A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
> > you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
> > and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
> > click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
> > text.
> >
>
> But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text
> editor isn't the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the
> user is always stuck at the newbie stage.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that saying Vim's learning curve is
steep is a gross exaggeration. The fact is, that for X amount of time,
the Vim newbie will be helpless with Vim. That's not true of Notepad or
GEdit.

>
> I think there's a place for "user-friendly" or "intuitively obvious"
> applications, but it's for things that you don't use every day and
> therefore don't have a chance to develop any "muscle memory" or other
> expertise. A disk recovery app, for example, needs that kind of
> interface because it's aimed at a problem that hopefully doesn't come
> up very often. But when it does we're already frustrated and don't
> want to have to learn how to use an arcane piece of software.

This is absolutely true, but doesn't refute Vim's steep learning curve.

>
> A software developer, on the other hand, spends a large portion of
> his time in his text editor. It's his "home base." What Alan Cooper
> once called a "sovereign app." With apps like that, what's wanted is
> an interface that doesn't insist on calling attention to itself, but
> instead recedes into the background so the user can focus all of his
> attention on the task. Otherwise it's like trying to play the piano
> while looking at your hands instead of the sheetmusic (or hearing the
> song in your head.)

:-) This is certainly true, but ...

>
> People who don't work with text all that much or very often can be
> quite content with Nano, Notepad, or even simpler interfaces. You
> don't need vim to send text messages or tweets!

True...

>
> But other people find those "user-friendly" apps too confining, and
> almost as awkward to use as an on-screen keyboard to be pecked at
> with a stylus.

True. That's exactly why we're all using Vim. Once you learn it, it's
*much* easier (and faster) than "user-friendly" apps.

Everything you write in this email is absolutely true, but none of it
supports the poster who claimed that talk of Vim's steep learning curve
is a gross exaggeration. There's going to be a certain amount of time
during which a brand new Vim user is completely nonproductive in Vim,
because all he's doing is learning, not using. The length of that
nonproductive time depends on a lot of details, including how well and
quickly one links specific keystrokes to specific tasks. Correct me if
I'm wrong, but when I use Vim, my fingers do the thinking -- my head
has no clue.

The other thing I'd point out is that I have a feeling those who
perceive Vim's learning curve the steepest might be those like me, who
learned on vi, and only came to Vim after gaining proficiency on vi. In
my opinion, vi has a steeper learning curve than Vim -- no blocking, no
mouse, no menu, no cursor or pageup keys, no helpful tools to do
something you have no idea how to do. My memories of learning vi might
play a role in my opinion that Vim's learning curve is extremely steep.

SteveT

Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/
* http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance

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