My god the idiocy of what you are writing, and you have no clue either.
I don't even have time to read the thing because I am on a fucking
terminal that times out every 30 seconds because the local internet has
decided to play passmeon with itself.
I saw you wrote something about "making progress".
Well if your life journey is about learning to use Vim, good luck with it.
I have better things to do with my time than to dedicate it to learning a
tool instead of using the tool or any other tool for actula life purposes.
Bye.
On Sun, 1 Feb 2015, Guyzmo wrote:
> Hello vimmers,
>
> I really feel that kouzennoki is someone sent by the emacs-use
> mailing list, if there's one, because they're just jalous of how
> wonderful is the modal command in vim.
>
> I stopped going on usenet about 10 years ago, and I have to admit I
> have never seen such a density of non-sense and wtf in such a long mail
> that at first I thought WTF! tl;dr. But finally I did read it.
>
> ok, that's it for the tl;dr. If you're bored, don't want to do
> another project or just cannot find sleep, get on reading. Otherwise,
> just *plonk* this whole thread. That's what I should have done, but too
> late, I read too much, and now I'm feeding the troll. And that one eats
> your fingers too, so beware.
>
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:17:32PM +0100, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> […]
>>> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
>> I'm sorry, but practice is a useless thing when it is required to have a
>> meaningful experience AFTER the practice.
>
> That sentence is just stupid. Reading, coding, and even *thinking*
> is meaningful after the practice. You usually do not miss what you do
> not have. And you can make a sense of something only after practicing
> it.
>
>> That whole mindset is just stupid. Learning in order to do something later
>> on that you dislike doing.
>
> Then don't do it, nobody forces you. If you don't like vim, use
> emacs, nano, ed, cat!
>
>> So normal learning takes place in the context of doing meaningful things.
>> You want to do a certain thing, then you go and look up how to do it, or
>> find out or discover how to do it. Then you do the thing, and on the next
>> occassion of needing to do something, you repeat the process. In this way
>> you work and you learn, and you learn as you work.
>> And in this way you remember everything you learn, because every learning
>> experience is meaningful and useful.
>
> Indeed, and that's exactly the way I've been learning vim over the
> last 10+ years. So here I'll talk about my very own experience: I first
> read the tutorial, and understand some basic stuff. There are some I
> agreed on, others less. I have never been a fan of the hjkl movements
> (because this is so anti-dvorak layout), but I find myself using it
> from time to time.
>
> And over the last couple of years, I've discovered a group of people
> that like to gather to drink, eat and troll happily, while showing off
> new stuff discovered in our favorite editor. That group calls itself
> tuppervim, and since then I made more progress than in the previous 10
> years. And then I discover new movements like `}`, `]]` or `)`. And
> if you don't know what it is? Just do :help it!
>
> I'm not really a gamer, but they finally got me on doing some vim-
> golf. And there I discovered the true beauty of the `t` and `f` motions.
> I mean, I read about it in the manual, but thought how limited and
> uninteresting they were. But, now I surprise myself using them daily.
>
> Finally, I believe that vim, and more generally Vi, is a language,
> and there's nothing natural about a language, it's something you do
> learn. When you say that using the cursor and selecting etc‥ is "more
> natural"/"easier", it's only because you've *learned* it first.
>
>> But studying for 5 years on a university, just to get a diploma, or
>> whatever... without doing really meaningful things with it. You forget
>> everything, because it has never been relevant.
>
> I spent 5 years on an university, and I feel the total opposite way,
> I just never cared for the diploma, but was like a child in front of a
> chocolate box picking his favorite chocolates each year.
>
> I guess that if you havet hat point of view, you're lacking one of
> the most important thing a human soul can have, it's curiosity!
>
>> And asking someone to invest heavily in order to reap benefits in the far
>> future (only to sacrifice your pleasure today) is just stupid. You could be
>> spending that time achieving useful things, and not end up in some
>> depressive or near or somewhat semi-depressive mood because you left the
>> flow of having fun, and you are now studying boring stuff that you don't
>> really need now.
>
> Well, you're describing the way I feel when using inferior editors,
> like emacs or sublime, I'm not even talking about notepad, or that thing
> they call "text processor".
>
> I'm using everyday vim, and using vim is a pleasure. I focus on what
> I want to express or organize, and the editor is not getting in the way
> whereas helping me to be faster at doing it.
>
> So all in all, I guess that the real problem with vim is when you're
> forced to use something else than vim that forces you to slow down and
> care for trivial stuff like the font, the title, the alignment or what
> else.
>
>>> The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
>> The basic problem is that even Vim's help system is not user friendly.
>
> whaaaaaaat? May be you'd prefer that:
>
> http://www.pointsincase.com/files/u2/word-paper-clip.jpg
>
>>>> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
>>>> possible :p.
>>> Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
>>> a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
>>
>> Everything is self-created, but it is created out of a desire or perceived
>> need to use a certain thing or tool at a certain time or moment or place or
>> location. When you would be better off abandoning the tool, instead of
>> forcing it through.
>> And the frustration results from a mis-appreciation of what is required in
>> that moment. In your exhaustion or tiredness you may try to get something
>> working with a form of stubborn persistence when you would be better off
>> choosing to do something else. And out of this the frustration comes. Of
>> course it is self-created. But it is self-created out of a desire to GET
>> THIS THING WORKING, not out of a laziness to learn.
>
> Or it comes from your total lack of curiosity. Instead of asking
> yourself what you can earn, what can that tool give to you in your
> everyday life, you're just whining about the first challenge you're
> facing. Poor you.
>
> I actually learned to use a dvorak layout 15 years ago, and it took
> me two painful week to reach the same comfort that I had with *erty
> keyboard. Today, 15 days look pretty much nothing compared to 15 years
> of dvorak being my everyday normality.
>
> But then the frustrating effort of 15 days being handicaped of
> typing less than a key each second, and slowly learning to type faster
> by doing exercise, trolling on usenet (where speed does not count) or
> IRC (where it does), helped me a lot to get up to speed.
>
> And who knows, if I haven't done that then, I might have ended up
> with a double carpal tunnel syndrom, and ended up coding that way:
>
> http://www.looknohands.me/ (that girl is amazing, btw)
>
> But luckily for me, I'm a dvorak user, and I like to think that not
> only I've typed comfortably for more than 15 years, but I'm having my
> hands in good wealth!
>
>> Because there is no need to learn the fucking thing when you have no
>> need to do that. Or to even use that. Like I said: learning something
>> if you have a real good reason to do a thing is excellent, learning
>> something if you had better spent your time elsewhere doing the same
>> thing with less effort is pointless.
>
> Because actually the whole point of learning vim, and being patient
> to learn it little things at a time is to do things with less effort. I
> know no other tool that do as many operations as vim in as few
> keystrokes. For example, reformating the current paragraph or your quote
> is just done by typing gqap. But I could delete the whole current
> paragraph by typing dap. And paste it before the previous quote by doing
> [[p.
>
> Yes, it looks weird, it needs training and some effort. But that's
> what computer scientists do: when there's a repetitive boring task, we
> take some effort to make it never happen again. I'm not taking the mouse
> again to shift select and then ^x to then click again and ^v. (thinking
> about that makes my carpal canal hurt).
>
>> Why on earth select a tool that requires more investment when you have
>> alternatives available that cost less?
>
> STOP USING YOUR COMPUTER! It needs you to do some investment, as you
> got to actually type on a thing called keyboard to make it do something.
> And then you may even have to think.
>
>> The logical, rational and sensible choice is to ditch the expensive tool
>> (for that moment, or situation, or time) and to use the thing that already
>> works. Or works with less cost.
>
> Yup, stop using it, and use a TV. It costs less, and it's easier to use.
>
>>> The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
>>> If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
>>> are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
>>>
>>> a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
>>> b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
>>> c) Google for a fix, or
>>> d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
>>
>> What if:
>> - you have no time to look up details of the terminal config
>> - you don't even have a good terminal at your disposal
>> - you have no time to fix .vimrc while spending perhaps 2 hours getting the
>> thing working because of your failing mental state
>> - fixing a thing that requires more time to fix it (and then do it) than it
>> does to work with the limitations is not a good spending of time, unless you
>> have the intent to let it be an asset for the future. But if the limiting
>> condition may well be gone within a week, such a thing would not apply, as
>> you would be investing time in a solution that you can throw a way a few
>> steps down the road.
>
> and what if your display has the wrong brightness, and you miss half
> the keys of the keyboards (oh, right, that's already your case), and you
> do not have a mouse, and you do not have an Internet connection, and you
> do not have electricity, and you actually don't even have a computer?
>
> Then yes, you cannot use vim.
>
> Vim has been designed to work with an environment, which includes
> everything from your computer to the shell running it. If you're too
> stupid to configure your tools, then don't use them, you might harm
> yourself.
>
>> - posting a message may also be too difficult or require more time than you
>> have, seeing as that probably you want to do that thing now.
>
> Well, your problem in the first place is that you did not want to
> learn. If you've learned something, you might have actually not needed
> to post a message. And by the way, you usually don't need to post a
> message, as the answer is in the manual or in a simple search on your
> favorite search engine.
>
> Ah right, you don't know how to read, you miss half of your
> keyboard, and right, you don't have a computer. That's not helping to
> use vim.
>
>>> Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
>>> that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
>>> therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
>>> configurations might help.
>
>> People have no need to deal with hard-to-use tools when they have
>> better things to do with their time. The tool is there for the user
>> (it is a servant) not the other way around. There is no requirement
>> whatsoever in life to keep up or be able to use a specific tool just
>> for the sake of being able to use it.
>
> indeed, and learning to drive a car is not useful, you can just jump
> in and go where you want, because you've already done it in GTA? And you
> might actually fly a plane as well, because learning to pilote it is
> totally irrelevant, you used to throw paper planes at school (instead of
> learning), how much harder would that be?
>
> EVERY tool needs to be learned in order for someone to use it. A
> human being does even need to learn to eat and to poop! That does not
> mean the user is a servant of the tool. Every tool needs to be learned.
>
>> But it all boils down to cost-benefit.
>
> It takes more time to learn to fly a plane, but once you know it,
> you can travel faster than by car. Using vim feels like flying on the
> text edition, whereas other editors makes you slower.
>
>> And sometimes, indeed, there is a gain in spending time with complaining
>> when it is obvious that even though Vim may be perhaps lacking in certain
>> important areas, there still might not be any tool that comes close to it,
>> regardless.
>
> Well, even though I'm part of the people that tend to cristicize
> about vim from time to time, it's mostly because of the things that you
> don't see, neither its interface or the experience. And those things are
> being fixed (at least I hope) by neovim, and are because Bram started
> working on vim while I was still playing on my Amstrad.
>
>> And in that case investing effort in either improving the tool, or
>> complaining to people that might improve it, or to break a mindset
>> that the tool doesn't need improvement whatsoever, because the user is
>> always to blame and never the tool, well.... perhaps then complaining
>> is also a form of investment, instead of using a difficult help system
>> it might be useful to complain about the difficulty of using it ;-)..
>
> There I do not agree. The tool is very simple in its design, even
> though it might be hard to learn. But once you understood the way it has
> been designed, you can only be happy it is working that way and not
> another.
>
>> Such things are at the behest of the developer or maintainer or
>> configurator. It should not be asked of every idividual user to improve the
>> basic default user friendliness of an application.
>
> that's choice/flexibility versus conveniency/ease of use. You have
> as many vim configuration as there vim users. It's all customizable, and
> if you like it, you can take it as is, if you don't you can change it. I
> personally even configured emacs key moves in the insert mode (yes, I
> dared!).
>
> […]
>> And hence I have had years and years of being frustrated and not anyone to
>> talk to it about, or about it. My apologies if that seems like unfair or
>> anything, but still it is a good opportunity to get it out and also convey
>> the sentiment that yes.
>> Vim is not user friendly. Not the slightest.
>> Or indeed, more positively described:
>> Vim is user unfriendly. :p.
>
> User friendliness is a very subjective thing. It is considered that
> a terminal is not user friendly. You say vim is not userfriendly. But
> this is non sense.
>
> I find that the terminal is the best user experience ever, it feels
> like talking to your computer, in a few keystrokes you can do hundreds
> of actions that would need days to browse through all the menus, the
> clicks and the panels a so called user friendly system would give.
>
> All those systems, like Apple XCode that wants to do a lot of stuff
> automagically for you, or the arduino IDE that compiles files all alone
> without giving you any idea on the order of compilation? That's very
> user-unfriendly to me, because it hides me essential part of how it's
> working not giving me the ability to make it work the way I need it to
> work.
>
> Vim is not like that.
>
>> And the help system itself is your enemy, not your friend. I will relate in
>> the other email, if still allowed here ;-) :-/.
>
> Like using any manual, it has its own conventions. Learn them and it
> will be your best friend. Don't do that, and stay stupid.
>
>> Hey I like this quote!!!
> […tl;dr]
>> Entitled princess syndrome.
>
> I may type fast in my editor, but it does not help reading faster.
> Instead of writing down your life in a public mailing list, you'd better
> go RTFM, talk with other users and learn how to better learn and love
> vim! You were the one saying that you had better stuff to do in your
> life than RTFM? But how compares talking about your life with RTFM to be
> a better programmer and a smarter user of your editor, that will be four
> favorite editor, but you don't know it yet?
>
> BTW, I say you were talking about your life, but 320 lines that you
> wrote *after* saying Bye in the discussion, in a mail that was already
> 320 lines… WTF?!
>
> N.B.: This mail has been happily written with vim and using a dvorak
> layout. And this has been a pleasure, and this is where the real poetry
> is! (yeah, back on topic of the thread :-p)
>
> my €.0002, sorry,
>
> --
> Guyzmo
>
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