Rebbe Malachi: 2025

Friday, April 4, 2025

Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

Hi Marc and others,

Just to jump in here (maybe without knowing anything about the topic
or even what I am talking about):
My problem with NeoVim is that (according to what I have been led to
believe) is that NeoVim will not run on terminals that do not support
a UTF-8 character set. This is a problem for me for at least a couple
of reasons.

On the other hand, Vim runs just fine on a non-UTF-8 terminal (emulated or not).

Thank you Vim.
To repeat, thank you Vim.

Maybe someday I will have to face up to a completely UTF-8 world, but
happily that world has not yet fully come.

Thank you Vim.

----
Dave

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Re: Vim Script for Python Developers guide updated with information about tuples

Yegappan Lakshmanan said on Sun, 30 Mar 2025 08:20:09 -0700

>Hi,
>
>On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 6:56 AM Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Yegappan Lakshmanan said on Fri, 28 Mar 2025 23:34:27 -0700
>>
>> >Hi all,
>> >
>> >I have updated the "Vim Script for Python Developers" guide with
>> >information about tuples:
>> >
>> >https://gist.github.com/yegappan/16d964a37ead0979b05e655aa036cad0
>> >
>> >Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.
>>
>> That's one heck of a resource! Does everything in that document work
>> with the Vim Script in Vim9?
>>
>
>I started working on the guide before the Vim9script support was
>developed. So the guide applies to the classic Vimscript. I need to
>find time to create a
>similar guide for the Vim9script.
>
>Regards,
>Yegappan

Thanks Yegappan! Please let us all know when the similar guide for
Vim9script is complete.

SteveT

Steve Litt

http://444domains.com

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Marc,

I am trying the following:

>·······some_array=('one'⏎
>·······␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣'two'⏎
'three'⏎
'four'⏎
'five')⏎

The cursor is on the line containing 'three', normal mode.
I press '==' to auto align and the result is:

>·······some_array=('one'⏎
>·······␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣'two'⏎
>·······>·······␣␣␣␣'three'⏎
'four'⏎
'five')⏎

i.e. VIM aligns with as many tabs as possible and fills the rest with spaces instead of repeating the indentation and alignment of the previous line.

Is there a fix for that?

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Tuesday, April 1, 2025

Re: StackExchange is a sad thing too

Without wanting to continue participating in this topic's interchange of points/arguments, beyond this contribution, I just want to say that I fully agree with what Marc offered in his reply regarding the advantages of older technologies that have become disused, likely because people, being people, are generally lazy and want a SPOC for all things, and only to willing and eager to leave it to others to "take care of my backups", hence the explosive adoption of things like Facebook, Twitter, etc. ... which are not desktop-based, leaving everyone at the mercy of "them" in remote places. Just another facet of what can only be described as a long game-for destroying physical (i.e. neighbourhood) communities of like minds by eventually pulling the plug on those centralized services.

Such blind mass-adoption that I feel can only be characterized as behaviour similar to lemmings or dodos, and we know what happened to the latter! Hence why I keep my email client, and all such personal information, in my own hands at the desktop.

I will still have ALL my resources when the internet fails, as long as a nuke hasn't fried my computer. 🙂

Eric

P.S. This is my email setting for all things. Thank you for understanding.

On 2025-04-01 05:30, Marc Chantreux wrote:

I Ben and thanks for sharing this feeling,    On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 08:24:16PM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:

thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a  user mailing list.

  I'm sorry to hear you feel that way; the goal of the StackExchange  project was to create a commons of high-quality resources (much like  Wikipedia has).

  Wikipedia came out to fill the gap of collaborative places to edit  articles.    StackExchange just split communities because previous tools (mailing  lists, newsgroups, archives and FAQ) were so much more convenient but  in the early years of this millenium, lot of people came to internet  with no idea of habits and customs of the technical communities.    If it was ignorance, that's very sad. If not, I'll be happy to learn  abou arguments that was worth splitting communities.

I think the linked examples are good examples of this  (though if you visit the home page you will find more sand than pearls  these days, at the cost of having helped a great number of people).

  Did you try newsgroups or mail archives? did you enjoy having your own  local workflow with mbox mirrors indexed so you can use mutt of  maildir-utils to query them, add copies of posts or threads in your  notes and things like that?    StackExchange will never reach this level of convenience. Not to mention  it's so painful to have a decent conversation through html text ereas.  especilly for vim or emacs users.    I don't know if StackExchange has an API (I'll be happy to learn about  it) so I can include it in my workflow but nevertheless: It's extra work  for same result :(

Mailing lists are great, and they serve a different purpose for me  (cf. the recent extended discussion which might ultimately be boiled  down to a high-quality Q&A pair if desired).

  So how do you set the cursor between mailing lists and StackExchange?    We all know the story of questions that looks insignifiant at start  being the root of a giant threads with very interesting perspectives.    Another point against StackExchange: those kind of threads are so  painful to follow in a web page.    I couldn't imagine that people could be found of StackExchange  so I'm really grateful you shared about it.    regards.

StackExchange is a sad thing too

I Ben and thanks for sharing this feeling,

On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 08:24:16PM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:
> > thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a
> > user mailing list.
>
> I'm sorry to hear you feel that way; the goal of the StackExchange
> project was to create a commons of high-quality resources (much like
> Wikipedia has).

Wikipedia came out to fill the gap of collaborative places to edit
articles.

StackExchange just split communities because previous tools (mailing
lists, newsgroups, archives and FAQ) were so much more convenient but
in the early years of this millenium, lot of people came to internet
with no idea of habits and customs of the technical communities.

If it was ignorance, that's very sad. If not, I'll be happy to learn
abou arguments that was worth splitting communities.

> I think the linked examples are good examples of this
> (though if you visit the home page you will find more sand than pearls
> these days, at the cost of having helped a great number of people).

Did you try newsgroups or mail archives? did you enjoy having your own
local workflow with mbox mirrors indexed so you can use mutt of
maildir-utils to query them, add copies of posts or threads in your
notes and things like that?

StackExchange will never reach this level of convenience. Not to mention
it's so painful to have a decent conversation through html text ereas.
especilly for vim or emacs users.

I don't know if StackExchange has an API (I'll be happy to learn about
it) so I can include it in my workflow but nevertheless: It's extra work
for same result :(

> Mailing lists are great, and they serve a different purpose for me
> (cf. the recent extended discussion which might ultimately be boiled
> down to a high-quality Q&A pair if desired).

So how do you set the cursor between mailing lists and StackExchange?

We all know the story of questions that looks insignifiant at start
being the root of a giant threads with very interesting perspectives.

Another point against StackExchange: those kind of threads are so
painful to follow in a web page.

I couldn't imagine that people could be found of StackExchange
so I'm really grateful you shared about it.

regards.

--
Marc Chantreux

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Monday, March 31, 2025

Re: debuggable vimfiles

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 3:52 PM Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
>
> hello,
>
> On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:41:59AM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:
> > > Aside: that's why my ~/.vimrc looks like this so I can
> > > easily spot the problematic parts:
> >
> > I also frequently point folks towards [How to debug my
> > vimrc](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/2003/10604) and [How to debug a
> > mapping](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/7722/10604).
>
> thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a
> user mailing list.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way; the goal of the StackExchange
project was to create a commons of high-quality resources (much like
Wikipedia has). I think the linked examples are good examples of this
(though if you visit the home page you will find more sand than pearls
these days, at the cost of having helped a great number of people).

Mailing lists are great, and they serve a different purpose for me
(cf. the recent extended discussion which might ultimately be boiled
down to a high-quality Q&A pair if desired).

Cheers,
Ben

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Re: debuggable vimfiles

Den sön 30 mars 2025 21:53Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> skrev:

hello,

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:41:59AM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:
> > Aside: that's why my ~/.vimrc looks like this so I can
> > easily spot the problematic parts:
>
> I also frequently point folks towards [How to debug my
> vimrc](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/2003/10604) and [How to debug a
> mapping](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/7722/10604).

thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a
user mailing list.

I keep meaning to clean up my .vimrc my ~/.vim/after and my ~/.vim/autoload/bpj/, or at least comment them properly. In practice I just add everything at the bottom or near the top, depending on which works most like intended. The exception is my "text cleanup" function, the various commands which use that function and their config tables where I keep making those tables bigger and more numerous![1]

[1]: An uggly hack really: basically the function takes a possibly empty string of letters and a list of lists where each sublist has three items: an "id" letter which is uppercase for on by default and lowercase for off by default, a string with an ex statement — almost always an `%s///gce` of some complexity and a "description". For example

['I', '%s/\v⟮(\_.{-})⟯/_\1_/gce', '⟮...⟯ → _..._']

or

['C', '%s/\v⌈(\_.{-})⌉/\L[\1]{.smallcaps}/gce', '⌈...⌉ → lc .smallcaps']

or

['C', '%s/\v^\s*\zs%(local\s+)?_\s*=\s*\ze\[\=*\[/--/ce', 'void long string to comment']

(Where ⟮⟯ is a pair of Unicode brackets. Don't ask what I need this for when I have Pandoc!)

Each command passes its optional argument on to the function as the string of letters for turning an item on/off, whereafter the function executes each enabled item. A bit silly but beats typing all those substitutions every time. I try to keep the choice of letters mnemonic, but when all else files the function 'prints out' some or all lines of the table to a temporary buffer in a new window if it gets a non-empty third argument, which it does if the command was called with a bang. That's how I waste my time...

> > vim9script
> > run r/defaults.vim
> > run r/colors.vim
> >
> > run r/sublime.vim
> > nnoremap <c-p> :SublimeCtrlP<cr>
> > run ftplugin/man.vim
> > nnoremap <expr> K
> > \ &kp == "man" ? ":Man \<cword>\<cr>"
> > \ : &kp == ":help" ? "K"
> > \ : ":KP\<cr>"
> > run r/iab.vim
> > run r/ezfold.vim
> > run r/math.vim
> > run r/buffer_navigation.vim
> > run r/setvts.vim
> > run r/parentheses.vim
> > run r/cmd_makeprg.vim
> > set aw ar
> > nnoremap <c-s> :make!<cr>
> > imap <c-s> <c-o><c-s>
> > run r/mail-to.vim | noremap <space>t :To<cr>
> > run r/was_fzy.vim
> > run r/dwm.vim
>
> What an interesting structure. Have you considered using
> `~/.vim/plugin` to have these load automatically?

this was the way I started back in the 90's because it was the
idiomatic way. also when packs came around, I had a most of the stuff
in ~/.vim/pack/*/start.

Nowadays, the only things I kepts in ~/.vim/pack/*/start are the
ftplugins and every addition comes as late as possible.

as example

┌─ /home/mc/.vim/after/ftplugin/python.vim ───
│ vim9script
│ set noet
│ packadd indent-object
│ run indent/python.vim
│ packadd lsp
│ call LspAddServer([{
│ name: 'python',
│ filetype: ['python'],
│ path: 'pylsp',
│ args: [],
│ syncInit: true,
│ }])
│
│ inoremap <buffer> (fn def :<cr>……<cr>return ……<esc>2k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (wh while :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (wi with :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (aw async with :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (if if :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (ie if :<cr>……<cr>else:<cr>……<esc>3k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (fo for X in …… :<cr>……<esc>k^fXs
│ inoremap <buffer> (af async for X in …… :<cr>……<esc>k^fXs
│

when I start to chase a bug, comment all the ~/.vimrc lines
and decomment it line by line.

in the process, I have

inoremap <c-s>:w\|!tmux split vim /tmp/test<cr>

so I can easily see what changed.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux

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Sunday, March 30, 2025

debuggable vimfiles

hello,

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:41:59AM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:
> > Aside: that's why my ~/.vimrc looks like this so I can
> > easily spot the problematic parts:
>
> I also frequently point folks towards [How to debug my
> vimrc](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/2003/10604) and [How to debug a
> mapping](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/7722/10604).

thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a
user mailing list.

> > vim9script
> > run r/defaults.vim
> > run r/colors.vim
> >
> > run r/sublime.vim
> > nnoremap <c-p> :SublimeCtrlP<cr>
> > run ftplugin/man.vim
> > nnoremap <expr> K
> > \ &kp == "man" ? ":Man \<cword>\<cr>"
> > \ : &kp == ":help" ? "K"
> > \ : ":KP\<cr>"
> > run r/iab.vim
> > run r/ezfold.vim
> > run r/math.vim
> > run r/buffer_navigation.vim
> > run r/setvts.vim
> > run r/parentheses.vim
> > run r/cmd_makeprg.vim
> > set aw ar
> > nnoremap <c-s> :make!<cr>
> > imap <c-s> <c-o><c-s>
> > run r/mail-to.vim | noremap <space>t :To<cr>
> > run r/was_fzy.vim
> > run r/dwm.vim
>
> What an interesting structure. Have you considered using
> `~/.vim/plugin` to have these load automatically?

this was the way I started back in the 90's because it was the
idiomatic way. also when packs came around, I had a most of the stuff
in ~/.vim/pack/*/start.

Nowadays, the only things I kepts in ~/.vim/pack/*/start are the
ftplugins and every addition comes as late as possible.

as example

┌─ /home/mc/.vim/after/ftplugin/python.vim ───
│ vim9script
│ set noet
│ packadd indent-object
│ run indent/python.vim
│ packadd lsp
│ call LspAddServer([{
│ name: 'python',
│ filetype: ['python'],
│ path: 'pylsp',
│ args: [],
│ syncInit: true,
│ }])
│
│ inoremap <buffer> (fn def :<cr>……<cr>return ……<esc>2k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (wh while :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (wi with :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (aw async with :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (if if :<cr>……<esc>k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (ie if :<cr>……<cr>else:<cr>……<esc>3k$i
│ inoremap <buffer> (fo for X in …… :<cr>……<esc>k^fXs
│ inoremap <buffer> (af async for X in …… :<cr>……<esc>k^fXs
│

when I start to chase a bug, comment all the ~/.vimrc lines
and decomment it line by line.

in the process, I have

inoremap <c-s>:w\|!tmux split vim /tmp/test<cr>

so I can easily see what changed.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux

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Re: Vim Script for Python Developers guide updated with information about tuples

Hi,

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 6:56 AM Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> wrote:

Yegappan Lakshmanan said on Fri, 28 Mar 2025 23:34:27 -0700

>Hi all,
>
>I have updated the "Vim Script for Python Developers" guide with
>information about tuples:
>
>https://gist.github.com/yegappan/16d964a37ead0979b05e655aa036cad0
>
>Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

That's one heck of a resource! Does everything in that document work
with the Vim Script in Vim9?

I started working on the guide before the Vim9script support was developed.

So the guide applies to the classic Vimscript. I need to find time to create a

similar guide for the Vim9script.

Regards,

Yegappan

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt

http://444domains.com

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 3:05 AM Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
>
> Aside: that's why my ~/.vimrc looks like this so I can
> easily spot the problematic parts:

I also frequently point folks towards [How to debug my
vimrc](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/2003/10604) and [How to debug a
mapping](https://vi.stackexchange.com/q/7722/10604).

> vim9script
> run r/defaults.vim
> run r/colors.vim
>
> run r/sublime.vim
> nnoremap <c-p> :SublimeCtrlP<cr>
> run ftplugin/man.vim
> nnoremap <expr> K
> \ &kp == "man" ? ":Man \<cword>\<cr>"
> \ : &kp == ":help" ? "K"
> \ : ":KP\<cr>"
> run r/iab.vim
> run r/ezfold.vim
> run r/math.vim
> run r/buffer_navigation.vim
> run r/setvts.vim
> run r/parentheses.vim
> run r/cmd_makeprg.vim
> set aw ar
> nnoremap <c-s> :make!<cr>
> imap <c-s> <c-o><c-s>
> run r/mail-to.vim | noremap <space>t :To<cr>
> run r/was_fzy.vim
> run r/dwm.vim

What an interesting structure. Have you considered using
`~/.vim/plugin` to have these load automatically? (You could control
the order using sorted names, I believe.)

--
D. Ben Knoble

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Re: Vim Script for Python Developers guide updated with information about tuples

Yegappan Lakshmanan said on Fri, 28 Mar 2025 23:34:27 -0700

>Hi all,
>
>I have updated the "Vim Script for Python Developers" guide with
>information about tuples:
>
>https://gist.github.com/yegappan/16d964a37ead0979b05e655aa036cad0
>
>Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

That's one heck of a resource! Does everything in that document work
with the Vim Script in Vim9?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt

http://444domains.com

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Thanks.
I will try harder to find the reason first.

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 06:19:22AM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> It seems to happen even with a completely empty stevendebugrc, e.g.
> vim -u /dev/null

OK. please consider using a new thread to ask the community about this.
I have no idea what's going on and maybe your terminal is involved.

the problem is: vim seems to remove the CSI.

You can also mention the main goal (maybe there was a simpler way):
* say a macro works for me and not for you
* how to get the minimal setting we can agree about

Aside: that's why my ~/.vimrc looks like this so I can
easily spot the problematic parts:

regards

vim9script
run r/defaults.vim
run r/colors.vim

run r/sublime.vim
nnoremap <c-p> :SublimeCtrlP<cr>
run ftplugin/man.vim
nnoremap <expr> K
\ &kp == "man" ? ":Man \<cword>\<cr>"
\ : &kp == ":help" ? "K"
\ : ":KP\<cr>"
run r/iab.vim
run r/ezfold.vim
run r/math.vim
run r/buffer_navigation.vim
run r/setvts.vim
run r/parentheses.vim
run r/cmd_makeprg.vim
set aw ar
nnoremap <c-s> :make!<cr>
imap <c-s> <c-o><c-s>
run r/mail-to.vim | noremap <space>t :To<cr>
run r/was_fzy.vim
run r/dwm.vim

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Saturday, March 29, 2025

Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 20:31:40 +0100 Marc Chantreux wrote:

> this happens only using the mapping?

It seems to happen even with a completely empty stevendebugrc, e.g.

vim -u /dev/null

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Sat, Mar 29, 2025 at 05:10:42PM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> Doing what you suggested and it seems to work correctly. However, there
> is something new that is weird: while in 'Insert' mode, pressing arrow
> keys results in typing letters

something in the process removed the CSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code).
I have no clue what's going on for the moment.

this happens only using the mapping?

regards

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

<Home> -> 'H'
<End> -> 'F'

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Thanks Marc.

Doing what you suggested and it seems to work correctly. However, there
is something new that is weird: while in 'Insert' mode, pressing arrow
keys results in typing letters:

Up -> 'A'
Down -> 'B'
Right -> 'C'
Left -> 'D'

and after each letter is typed, a <CR> is inserted too.

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 05:28:47PM +0300, Riza Dindir wrote:
> I can not say neovim is a bad thing. I do not have bad feelings towards emacs,

emacs is great if you're found of their point of view (I'm not but I
fully understand). I really think *neovim* is a bad thing in a long run
because it's just vim incompatible with vim because of bad decisions
(Or please someone prove me wrong by showing me at least 1 thing worth
enough to split the community into 2 separated things which is the
most notable change neovim came with).

> Acme editor is something that I am fond of too, but have no use for, since I am
> not on Plan9. But having text and being able to run that text is nice. There
> are ports of acme, but vim is sufficient for all my development, and editing
> requirements.

same here: I love the idea but I'm so used to vim and I really think
mouse gestures doesn't compete a 105 bullets machine gun magazine.

> The video that Mark Chantreux has given a link to is really helpful and nice.
> Thank you for the link.

glad you liked! thanks for this feedback. An improved version (then a
french one) is scheduled too.

regards.

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

hi Igbanam,

I'm pretty sure those are useless or conterproductive for me
(because of my DIY attitude):

> • vim-test/vim-test is a good abstraction on testing anything in the editor

* sometimes it's not as easy as "just start prove"
* sometimes I run test from another tmux split
* sometimes 1 want to run only some test files with some env variables
* ...

so I just use 'mp to run the tests:

https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/cmd_makeprg.vim

> • vim-airline/vim-airline supercharges :h 'statusline',

I personnally use the dwm bar so I don't waste lines for my code :)

https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/dwm.vim

and use different cursor colors instead of showmode

https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/colors.vim?ref_type=heads#L16

> • preservim/nerdtree + webdevicons is the :Ex I didn't know I needed

I use arrows to do really fast buffer navigation

https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/buffer_navigation.vim

and to navigate in files, I use many vim things like ctags, gF , path+=**

In my .zshenv, I have:

n () grep -Hn "$@"

it's really convenient to combine gF +

:r!n -RF functionname

want to navigate in files provided by a debian pacakge?

:r!dpkg -L mypackage

and here we go.

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:46:08AM +0000, Igbanam Ogbuluijah wrote:
> • puremourning/vimspector allows me debug with a familiar interface

I wish I had those tools when I started. now I'm cool with cli debuggers
so termdebug LGTM.

> • tpope/fugitive has replaced how I use Git, alongside git-gutter and friends

same here!!!

:Gcommit|Gwrite

never goes away from my history. git gutter is awesome too.

> • I've become rather dependent on welle/targets for working with text objects

I'm not sure I need it but I will at least test it. thank you for
sharing.

> The community has always helped leveling up. By the time I got confident enough
> to be active in the community, Vim 9 was out with a more relatable syntax.

this is weird people remaining silent when they need help the most.

regards.

marc

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

hello Steven,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 02:52:18PM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:53:42 +0100 Marc Chantreux wrote:
> > I'll come back on it later.
> I appreciate that and look forward to it.

As far as I know vim, I'm pretty sure that the unexpected line
in the middle of the result of the substitution is related to
something else. before investing it, can you test a very minimal
alternative vimrc file like this:

vim9script
var ArgIndentRhs = () => submatch(1) .. "\r"
.. submatch(2)
.. repeat(' ', len(submatch(3)))
.. submatch(4)

command -nargs=0 ArgIndent {
var s = @/
s!\v^((\s*)(\S+\s*).*%#)(.*)!\=ArgIndentRhs()!
@/ = s
}
inoremap \\<cr> \<c-o>:ArgIndent<cr>
set ai ci noet

to do so:
* save this content in, say, ~/stevendebugrc
* open vim with -u ~/stevendebugrc

regards

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Friday, March 28, 2025

Re: Vim Script for Python Developers guide updated with information about tuples

Very thorough and detailed. Most impressive. Thank you for doing this.

Salman

On Sat, Mar 29, 2025, 02:34 Yegappan Lakshmanan <yegappanl@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I have updated the "Vim Script for Python Developers" guide with information
about tuples:

https://gist.github.com/yegappan/16d964a37ead0979b05e655aa036cad0

Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

Regards,
Yegappan

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Vim Script for Python Developers guide updated with information about tuples

Hi all,

I have updated the "Vim Script for Python Developers" guide with information

about tuples:

https://gist.github.com/yegappan/16d964a37ead0979b05e655aa036cad0

Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

Regards,

Yegappan

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Thursday, March 27, 2025

Vim strengths [Was: Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

On 27.03.25 17:28, Riza Dindir wrote:

> I started using vi (elvis, then vim) in the late 90's. What I do like is

> the regexp (which I used to convert or process lines, csv files, etc), and

> pipes and filters. Pipes and filters basically do open up the door to

> writing extensions in any language (python, C, bash, ...). It is maybe

> restricting, but it is the one feature that struck me when I started out. !

> commands also make it easy for me to run commands from within vim.

'nother old-timer here, initially Vi on HP-UX in the late 80's, after CREDIT on an Intel "Blue Box". (Much like Vim's ex mode.) Later, Vim offered more goodies, without finger-chords.

Attempts to convince Bram of the benefits of Posix-compliant EREs over

obsolete¹ BREs, over passing decades bore no fruit, even given the burden

of all those backslashes in BREs. In the end, I've just studiously

avoided Vim's confused melange of regex alternatives, and stuck with

egrep and awk with their posix compliant consistency.

For me, it is Vim's folding which stands out. My 460 pages of *nix &

embedded systems notes fold to a single page, serving as table of

contents, opening by navigation or search.

Being able to use Vim as mutt's editor is rather nifty, too. Especially

there, spellchecking in English and Danish offer great utility. The ease

of adding "good words" to a local dictionary extension is great.

Custom mappings for åæø, avoid repeated digraph hacking and the control

key. Mapping Alt-W to auto-insert "[Was: " in the Subject line, then

place the cursor in front, is a handy convenience, as now.

Even encryption has an occasional use. Vim does more than any one person

can fully utilise, I'm sure. (Add ctags and make, and you have all the

IDE I've ever needed.)

¹ See "man 7 regex".

Erik

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:53:42 +0100 Marc Chantreux wrote:

> I'll came back on it later.

I appreciate that and look forward to it.

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

Hello All,

I can not say neovim is a bad thing. I do not have bad feelings towards emacs, neovim or other editors. These are just tools. I happen to like vim and am using it continuously for development. I tried neovim, but the pipe command (!) did not work as expected. I do think vi/vim's way of being able to run filters via pipes is awesome. I use fzf in vim and, as I remember, I could not get this to run with my macros.

I started using vi (elvis, then vim) in the late 90's. What I do like is the regexp (which I used to convert or process lines, csv files, etc), and pipes and filters. Pipes and filters basically do open up the door to writing extensions in any language (python, C, bash, ...). It is maybe restricting, but it is the one feature that struck me when I started out. ! commands also make it easy for me to run commands from within vim.

Acme editor is something that I am fond of too, but have no use for, since I am not on Plan9. But having text and being able to run that text is nice. There are ports of acme, but vim is sufficient for all my development, and editing requirements.

The video that Mark Chantreux has given a link to is really helpful and nice. Thank you for the link.

Regards

Riza Dindir

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

Sure thing, Marc.

I run into things I can't do in Vim 9 during Advent of Code; but I realize I am using the language for something it was not built for primarily, so I don't raise too many issues. The issues I raise are mainly bugs, and the Vim team is quick in getting these fixed.

Some plugins make quality of life better; mostly interfacing with tooling outside the editor. Off the top of my head…

vim-test/vim-test is a good abstraction on testing anything in the editor
puremourning/vimspector allows me debug with a familiar interface
tpope/fugitive has replaced how I use Git, alongside git-gutter and friends
vim-airline/vim-airline supercharges :h 'statusline',
preservim/nerdtree + webdevicons is the :Ex I didn't know I needed, and
I've become rather dependent on welle/targets for working with text objects

The community has always helped leveling up. By the time I got confident enough to be active in the community, Vim 9 was out with a more relatable syntax.

Igbanam

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:09 AM Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:

Hi Igbanam and thanks for sharing,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 09:59:09AM +0000, Igbanam Ogbuluijah wrote:
> I'm keen to hear your thoughts when you develop it more. Also, when you give /
> publish that talk, please remember to share on this thread as well. Thank you!

which can be enriched by more testimonials. For example:

* I would be really happy to know at least one thing you can't do in vim9
* even I really don't like the vim9script syntax, I saw the improvements
(and understood it was a matter of efficiency) but cool stuff like
lambdas, hashes and lists were in vim since 8.0. I never realized viml
was so problematic.
* Did you (ask for|help) help from the community to level up?

regards

marc

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

Hi Igbanam and thanks for sharing,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 09:59:09AM +0000, Igbanam Ogbuluijah wrote:
> I'm keen to hear your thoughts when you develop it more. Also, when you give /
> publish that talk, please remember to share on this thread as well. Thank you!

which can be enriched by more testimonials. For example:

* I would be really happy to know at least one thing you can't do in vim9
* even I really don't like the vim9script syntax, I saw the improvements
(and understood it was a matter of efficiency) but cool stuff like
lambdas, hashes and lists were in vim since 8.0. I never realized viml
was so problematic.
* Did you (ask for|help) help from the community to level up?

regards

marc

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Re: why is neovim such a sad thing?

There was once I was on the Neovim bandwagon; because I had some difficulty getting started with Vimscript before Vim 9. When Vim 9 came with vim9script, it no longer made sense to invest in Lua as a language to script the editor.

I can empathize with people who lean into Neovim. I am only eight years into my Vim journey. There's a certain passion and curiosity required to main a thing; in this case, "to being a Vim-main", or a "purist" in certain terms. That passion and curiosity is less prevalent these days because the industry has created many comfort™ abstractions to aid the engineer / developer in getting work done. I see these comfort abstractions in your journey through sed, awk, scripting, and beyond; with the next thing incrementally expanding affordance, by somewhat abstracting away the complexity of its predecessor. It's in this same light that Neovim's popularity has taken flight. However Vim and Neovim aren't as static as the unix tools. The boon of opensource software is democratization; its bane is fragmentation (in product, and in community).

I see plugins as training wheels. Over time, I've realized I need less of them. But in a world fraught with so much GUI apps, that blank screen Vim starts with is daunting to the today engineer / developer. This, I think, is the allure for plugins: to get the blank workable without investing much time in reading the Vim docs. Another pattern emerging in recent years which, I think, is an extension to plugins-culture is the so-called "distros": AstroVim, LazyVim, SpaceVim, and so on. All these are along the line of making adoption easier. — something in my mind is telling me this adoption is also the reason for Evil and Viper in Emacs; but I wouldn't know cos I haven't used Emacs. — Once adopted, an advanced user would seek optimizations in the editor. At that point, most of these training wheels usually fall off naturally.

I wouldn't say Neovim as a sad thing per se; but there sure is a sadness. The sadness is that there is so much abstraction now that it seems we're abstracting away the thing itself. So new Vim users have less of a chance of being Vim users, they're further removed from the Unix philosophy. On one hand (the developer's hand), this is amazing because the barrier of entry is reduced. On one hand (the community's hand), this is preferred because adoption increases. On one hand (the culture's hand), this is scary cos this is an evolution which may leave the original culture behind.

I'm keen to hear your thoughts when you develop it more. Also, when you give / publish that talk, please remember to share on this thread as well. Thank you!

Igbanam

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 8:26 AM Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:

hello Paolo,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 03:01:54AM +0000, Paolo Bolzoni wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 at 12:37, Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
> > Cool! this way you have something much simpler than the smarttabs
> > plugin and you learned stuff in the process.
> >
> > that's what vim once was and should remain and that's the reason I
> > really see neovim as a very sad thing that happenned to our community.
>
> Can you elaborate? I always thought that in addition of its age,
> projects like neovim the proof how the vim idea is good.

I wish I had time to elaborate right now but I don't (I will at some point
because I more or less promise a talk at a local tech conference). But
let's try to pitch it a very concise way.

As introduction, I have to say I love the unix and convivialist
cultures: we help each others to make things possible with the most
simple, clean and maintainable way so we could share, explain, maintain,
drop easily.

* I started using vi (vim among other implementations) in the 90. At
this time it wasn't clear to me wich one was the best because I was
learning the very basics anyway. What hooked me is the way vi was
concise and consistent, yet powerful. For that and because it was
considered as "the default unix editor" at the time, I chose vi
then vim over emacs.
* When I started to master the basics, I became exigeant so I started to
tweak my .vimrc more and more. I asked so many questions on this list
and the irc channel and I realized two things that helped me to be so
confortable not only with vim but with the whole unix system as an
IDE: vi was just a visual ed so:
* so the langage you use to extend is the one you use every day.
* the concepts you use are available in unix at large including the
regexp, substitution syntax, pipes and filters
(https://github.com/eiro/talk-acme-changed-my-life).
then you realize sed works the same, then you realize that awk is a
verbose sed with line split and math, then you realize sometimes
you need both together + more "scripting langages" abilities and you
discover perl, then you discover perl regexps and PCRE and you
realize that regexps are so much more than what you previously
thought and you "nnoremap / /\v" (discovering \M in the process).
you *can't* waste your time trying to tune something this way
because you just practice the vim as a window to an amazing world
with a very rich culture
See https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/buffer_navigation.vim
* the first line is something I wrote once and forget forever
* all the others are made of things I use all the time

Of course, it is also a social journey: meet people, share about
problems and Ideas …

I wasn't aware of how vim will be the key to the whole unix culture when
I started my journey and I really think neovim put a distance to this
world using lua as default langage and insisting on plugins.

neovim users are actually emacs+viper users that are ignoring
themselves (and most of the time terrible vim users). there was no point
to split a community, its plugin ecosystem, its support effort,
its culture (to be honnest: yes, at some point there
were one good reason: async which only was added in vim8 but nowadays
I chat with many neovim users but none of them were able to show me
*one* thing I can envy mostly because vim already does it another way).

I'm really sorry I have no time to push more details and examples here
and I'll come back here to share more materials when it will be ready.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux
Pôle CESAR (Calcul et services avancés à la recherche)
Université de Strasbourg
14 rue René Descartes,
BP 80010, 67084 STRASBOURG CEDEX
03.68.85.60.79

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 08:36:28AM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> and if I continue typing on the second line, that line gets highlighted
> with a different background.

because hlsearch is on which is a good thing. update:

command -nargs=0 ArgIndent {
var s = @/
s!\v^((\s*)(\S+\s*).*%#)(.*)!\=ArgIndentRhs()!
@/ = s
}
inoremap \\<cr> \<c-o>:ArgIndent<cr>
set ai ci noet

> and placing the cursor on 'f' gives:

> one␣two␣three␣\⏎
>
> ␣␣␣␣four⏎

here I have

one two three f\
our

which works as expected. And for now your output makes no sense to me.
I'll came back on it later.

regards.

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Thanks. This is what I get when I type 'asdf asdf asdf \\<Enter>"

asdf␣asdf␣asdf▪⏎
␣␣␣␣␣\⏎

and if I continue typing on the second line, that line gets highlighted
with a different background.

This:

one␣two␣three␣four⏎

and placing the cursor on 'f' gives:

one␣two␣three␣\⏎

␣␣␣␣four⏎

however when I try 'u'(ndo) the restored initial line is also
highlighted.

Question:

On Wed, 26 Mar 2025 11:18:46 +0100 Marc Chantreux wrote:

> vim9script

This seems necessary, otherwise vim complains about the new code.
However, vim requires it to be the first line in .vimrc.

Since I am not experienced, I don't know how (or if) that would affect
the rest of my .vimrc. So, what is correct the way to do it? I.e. how
do I make sure the rest of my .vimrc will work if I place it on the
first line?

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why is neovim such a sad thing?

hello Paolo,

On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 03:01:54AM +0000, Paolo Bolzoni wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 at 12:37, Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
> > Cool! this way you have something much simpler than the smarttabs
> > plugin and you learned stuff in the process.
> >
> > that's what vim once was and should remain and that's the reason I
> > really see neovim as a very sad thing that happenned to our community.
>
> Can you elaborate? I always thought that in addition of its age,
> projects like neovim the proof how the vim idea is good.

I wish I had time to elaborate right now but I don't (I will at some point
because I more or less promise a talk at a local tech conference). But
let's try to pitch it a very concise way.

As introduction, I have to say I love the unix and convivialist
cultures: we help each others to make things possible with the most
simple, clean and maintainable way so we could share, explain, maintain,
drop easily.

* I started using vi (vim among other implementations) in the 90. At
this time it wasn't clear to me wich one was the best because I was
learning the very basics anyway. What hooked me is the way vi was
concise and consistent, yet powerful. For that and because it was
considered as "the default unix editor" at the time, I chose vi
then vim over emacs.
* When I started to master the basics, I became exigeant so I started to
tweak my .vimrc more and more. I asked so many questions on this list
and the irc channel and I realized two things that helped me to be so
confortable not only with vim but with the whole unix system as an
IDE: vi was just a visual ed so:
* so the langage you use to extend is the one you use every day.
* the concepts you use are available in unix at large including the
regexp, substitution syntax, pipes and filters
(https://github.com/eiro/talk-acme-changed-my-life).
then you realize sed works the same, then you realize that awk is a
verbose sed with line split and math, then you realize sometimes
you need both together + more "scripting langages" abilities and you
discover perl, then you discover perl regexps and PCRE and you
realize that regexps are so much more than what you previously
thought and you "nnoremap / /\v" (discovering \M in the process).
you *can't* waste your time trying to tune something this way
because you just practice the vim as a window to an amazing world
with a very rich culture
See https://git.unistra.fr/mc/dot/-/blob/main/vim/r/buffer_navigation.vim
* the first line is something I wrote once and forget forever
* all the others are made of things I use all the time

Of course, it is also a social journey: meet people, share about
problems and Ideas …

I wasn't aware of how vim will be the key to the whole unix culture when
I started my journey and I really think neovim put a distance to this
world using lua as default langage and insisting on plugins.

neovim users are actually emacs+viper users that are ignoring
themselves (and most of the time terrible vim users). there was no point
to split a community, its plugin ecosystem, its support effort,
its culture (to be honnest: yes, at some point there
were one good reason: async which only was added in vim8 but nowadays
I chat with many neovim users but none of them were able to show me
*one* thing I can envy mostly because vim already does it another way).

I'm really sorry I have no time to push more details and examples here
and I'll come back here to share more materials when it will be ready.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux
Pôle CESAR (Calcul et services avancés à la recherche)
Université de Strasbourg
14 rue René Descartes,
BP 80010, 67084 STRASBOURG CEDEX
03.68.85.60.79

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Wednesday, March 26, 2025

Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 at 12:37, Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
> that's what vim once was and should remain and that's the reason I
> really neovim as a very sad thing that happenned to our community.

Can you elaborate? I always thought that in addition of its age,
projects like neovim the proof how the vim idea is good.

Cheers,
Paolo

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Hi,

On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 12:29:54PM +0100, BPJ wrote:
> Den mån 24 mars 2025 10:53Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> skrev:

> The relevant options are
>
> - 'timeout'
> - 'ttimeout'
> - 'timeoutlen'
> - 'ttimeoutlen'
>
> and you can/may need to tweak any or all of them. I have set them up so as to
> allow rather slow typing, especially when typing multi-key commands, which
> suits me because of my disability.

thanks for helping. it happened that timeout wasn't involved at all but
I'm keep this message close so I can take a look for my own usage.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Den mån 24 mars 2025 10:53Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> skrev:

hello,

On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 09:39:54AM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> set listchars=eol:⏎,tab:>·,trail:▪,space:␣,extends:>,precedes:<,nbsp:+
> set ai ci noet
> command -nargs=0 ArgIndent {
> y y | put y
> var s = @/
> s!\v^\s*\zs(\S+\s+).*!\=repeat(' ', 1 + len(submatch(1)))!
> @/ = s
> }
> inoremap \<cr> \<c-o>:ArgIndent<cr>
>
>
> and typing your example gives me:
>
> this␣--example␣\\⏎
> --works␣\⏎
> ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣--fine▪⏎
>
> However, if I type the '\\<cr>' fast, I get this:
>
>
> this␣--example␣\\⏎
> ␣␣␣␣␣--works␣\▪⏎
> ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣--fine▪⏎
>
> I wonder why it works for you and not for me.

well … I remember something about a mapping timout but I have to admit
I just don't know anymore.

The relevant options are

- 'timeout'

- 'ttimeout'

- 'timeoutlen'

- 'ttimeoutlen'

and you can/may need to tweak any or all of them. I have set them up so as to allow rather slow typing, especially when typing multi-key commands, which suits me because of my disability.

/bpj

regards

--
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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Steven,

On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 04:14:16PM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> Say, we start with:
>
> this␣--one␣--two␣--three⏎
>
> and the cursor is on the space right after '--one'.

Indeed an interesting question! I had use a new approach to do that

regards

vim9script

# We want to travel from this
#
# 1 2 3 4
# ( I W B ) # E
#
# to this
#
# 1 \r
# I w E
#
# I(dent) W(ord, the 1st one and its trailing space)
# B(egin) and E(nd) of the content split by the
# #(cursor) so the capture here is:
# w is the result of repeat(' ', len(W))
#
# KNOWN BUG:
# * at least one space is required at the end of line.
# (TODO fix with an alternative? like %#$?)
# NOTE:
# * If you want ArgIndentRhs to stay generic, all extra chars
# like \\ should be appended from the imap

var ArgIndentRhs = () => submatch(1) .. "\r"
.. submatch(2)
.. repeat(' ', len(submatch(3)))
.. submatch(4)

command -nargs=0 ArgIndent s!\v^((\s*)(\S+\s*).*%#)(.*)!\=ArgIndentRhs()!
inoremap \\<cr> \<c-o>:ArgIndent<cr>
set ai ci noet

--
Marc Chantreux

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Tuesday, March 25, 2025

Re: help target for pi_netrw.txt

On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, Tim Chase wrote:

> Discovered today that while
>
> :help netrw
>
> takes me to pi_netrw.txt, and most of the time help on a particular
> file-name takes me there:
>
> :help motion.txt
>
> for some reason
>
> :help pi_netrw.txt
>
> doesn't take me to that file.
>
> I did notice that motion.txt has an explicit "motion.txt" help-target
> on its first line and all the other entries in $VIMRUNTIME/doc/pi_*.txt
> have the "pi_" prefix on that first line, so I'm guessing this is just
> an oversight and pi_netrw.txt should includ the "pi_" prefix?

Thanks Tim, this got lost in the process of moving to
pack/dist/opt/netrw

I'll put it back in https://github.com/vim/vim/pull/16974

Thanks,
Christian
--
clairvoyant, n.:
A person, commonly a woman, who has the power of seeing that
which is invisible to her patron -- namely, that he is a blockhead.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

Marc,

Is it possible to fix this when editing existing code.

Say, we start with:

this␣--one␣--two␣--three⏎

and the cursor is on the space right after '--one'.

Type <Space>\\<Enter> (thus running your function). The result is:

this␣--one␣\␣--two⏎
▪▪▪▪▪▪⏎

but it would be good to have it as:

this␣--one␣\⏎
␣␣␣␣␣--two⏎

Is there a way to do this?

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Re: inoremap and typing pace?

On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 12:18:01PM -0000, Steven H. wrote:
> Thank you! I think it works now.

Cool! this way you have something much simpler than the smarttabs
plugin and you learned stuff in the process.

that's what vim once was and should remain and that's the reason I
really neovim as a very sad thing that happenned to our community.

regards

--
Marc Chantreux

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