I want to redirect output from the :hi command to a text file so I can compare :hi before and after doing some syntax highlighting stuff. If my sequence of commands is the following:
:hi
:syntax reset
:hi
I want to run a diff on the output of the two calls to :hi. Is this possible?
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Saturday, January 31, 2015
OMG, Vim is hard! [Was: Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]]
Hello vimmers,
I really feel that kouzennoki is someone sent by the emacs-use
mailing list, if there's one, because they're just jalous of how
wonderful is the modal command in vim.
I stopped going on usenet about 10 years ago, and I have to admit I
have never seen such a density of non-sense and wtf in such a long mail
that at first I thought WTF! tl;dr. But finally I did read it.
ok, that's it for the tl;dr. If you're bored, don't want to do
another project or just cannot find sleep, get on reading. Otherwise,
just *plonk* this whole thread. That's what I should have done, but too
late, I read too much, and now I'm feeding the troll. And that one eats
your fingers too, so beware.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:17:32PM +0100, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
[…]
> >and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
> I'm sorry, but practice is a useless thing when it is required to have a
> meaningful experience AFTER the practice.
That sentence is just stupid. Reading, coding, and even *thinking*
is meaningful after the practice. You usually do not miss what you do
not have. And you can make a sense of something only after practicing
it.
> That whole mindset is just stupid. Learning in order to do something later
> on that you dislike doing.
Then don't do it, nobody forces you. If you don't like vim, use
emacs, nano, ed, cat!
> So normal learning takes place in the context of doing meaningful things.
> You want to do a certain thing, then you go and look up how to do it, or
> find out or discover how to do it. Then you do the thing, and on the next
> occassion of needing to do something, you repeat the process. In this way
> you work and you learn, and you learn as you work.
> And in this way you remember everything you learn, because every learning
> experience is meaningful and useful.
Indeed, and that's exactly the way I've been learning vim over the
last 10+ years. So here I'll talk about my very own experience: I first
read the tutorial, and understand some basic stuff. There are some I
agreed on, others less. I have never been a fan of the hjkl movements
(because this is so anti-dvorak layout), but I find myself using it
from time to time.
And over the last couple of years, I've discovered a group of people
that like to gather to drink, eat and troll happily, while showing off
new stuff discovered in our favorite editor. That group calls itself
tuppervim, and since then I made more progress than in the previous 10
years. And then I discover new movements like `}`, `]]` or `)`. And
if you don't know what it is? Just do :help it!
I'm not really a gamer, but they finally got me on doing some vim-
golf. And there I discovered the true beauty of the `t` and `f` motions.
I mean, I read about it in the manual, but thought how limited and
uninteresting they were. But, now I surprise myself using them daily.
Finally, I believe that vim, and more generally Vi, is a language,
and there's nothing natural about a language, it's something you do
learn. When you say that using the cursor and selecting etc‥ is "more
natural"/"easier", it's only because you've *learned* it first.
> But studying for 5 years on a university, just to get a diploma, or
> whatever... without doing really meaningful things with it. You forget
> everything, because it has never been relevant.
I spent 5 years on an university, and I feel the total opposite way,
I just never cared for the diploma, but was like a child in front of a
chocolate box picking his favorite chocolates each year.
I guess that if you havet hat point of view, you're lacking one of
the most important thing a human soul can have, it's curiosity!
> And asking someone to invest heavily in order to reap benefits in the far
> future (only to sacrifice your pleasure today) is just stupid. You could be
> spending that time achieving useful things, and not end up in some
> depressive or near or somewhat semi-depressive mood because you left the
> flow of having fun, and you are now studying boring stuff that you don't
> really need now.
Well, you're describing the way I feel when using inferior editors,
like emacs or sublime, I'm not even talking about notepad, or that thing
they call "text processor".
I'm using everyday vim, and using vim is a pleasure. I focus on what
I want to express or organize, and the editor is not getting in the way
whereas helping me to be faster at doing it.
So all in all, I guess that the real problem with vim is when you're
forced to use something else than vim that forces you to slow down and
care for trivial stuff like the font, the title, the alignment or what
else.
> >The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
> The basic problem is that even Vim's help system is not user friendly.
whaaaaaaat? May be you'd prefer that:
http://www.pointsincase.com/files/u2/word-paper-clip.jpg
> >>So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
> >>possible :p.
> >Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> >a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
>
> Everything is self-created, but it is created out of a desire or perceived
> need to use a certain thing or tool at a certain time or moment or place or
> location. When you would be better off abandoning the tool, instead of
> forcing it through.
> And the frustration results from a mis-appreciation of what is required in
> that moment. In your exhaustion or tiredness you may try to get something
> working with a form of stubborn persistence when you would be better off
> choosing to do something else. And out of this the frustration comes. Of
> course it is self-created. But it is self-created out of a desire to GET
> THIS THING WORKING, not out of a laziness to learn.
Or it comes from your total lack of curiosity. Instead of asking
yourself what you can earn, what can that tool give to you in your
everyday life, you're just whining about the first challenge you're
facing. Poor you.
I actually learned to use a dvorak layout 15 years ago, and it took
me two painful week to reach the same comfort that I had with *erty
keyboard. Today, 15 days look pretty much nothing compared to 15 years
of dvorak being my everyday normality.
But then the frustrating effort of 15 days being handicaped of
typing less than a key each second, and slowly learning to type faster
by doing exercise, trolling on usenet (where speed does not count) or
IRC (where it does), helped me a lot to get up to speed.
And who knows, if I haven't done that then, I might have ended up
with a double carpal tunnel syndrom, and ended up coding that way:
http://www.looknohands.me/ (that girl is amazing, btw)
But luckily for me, I'm a dvorak user, and I like to think that not
only I've typed comfortably for more than 15 years, but I'm having my
hands in good wealth!
> Because there is no need to learn the fucking thing when you have no
> need to do that. Or to even use that. Like I said: learning something
> if you have a real good reason to do a thing is excellent, learning
> something if you had better spent your time elsewhere doing the same
> thing with less effort is pointless.
Because actually the whole point of learning vim, and being patient
to learn it little things at a time is to do things with less effort. I
know no other tool that do as many operations as vim in as few
keystrokes. For example, reformating the current paragraph or your quote
is just done by typing gqap. But I could delete the whole current
paragraph by typing dap. And paste it before the previous quote by doing
[[p.
Yes, it looks weird, it needs training and some effort. But that's
what computer scientists do: when there's a repetitive boring task, we
take some effort to make it never happen again. I'm not taking the mouse
again to shift select and then ^x to then click again and ^v. (thinking
about that makes my carpal canal hurt).
> Why on earth select a tool that requires more investment when you have
> alternatives available that cost less?
STOP USING YOUR COMPUTER! It needs you to do some investment, as you
got to actually type on a thing called keyboard to make it do something.
And then you may even have to think.
> The logical, rational and sensible choice is to ditch the expensive tool
> (for that moment, or situation, or time) and to use the thing that already
> works. Or works with less cost.
Yup, stop using it, and use a TV. It costs less, and it's easier to use.
> >The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> >If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> >are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
> >
> >a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> >b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> >c) Google for a fix, or
> >d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
>
> What if:
> - you have no time to look up details of the terminal config
> - you don't even have a good terminal at your disposal
> - you have no time to fix .vimrc while spending perhaps 2 hours getting the
> thing working because of your failing mental state
> - fixing a thing that requires more time to fix it (and then do it) than it
> does to work with the limitations is not a good spending of time, unless you
> have the intent to let it be an asset for the future. But if the limiting
> condition may well be gone within a week, such a thing would not apply, as
> you would be investing time in a solution that you can throw a way a few
> steps down the road.
and what if your display has the wrong brightness, and you miss half
the keys of the keyboards (oh, right, that's already your case), and you
do not have a mouse, and you do not have an Internet connection, and you
do not have electricity, and you actually don't even have a computer?
Then yes, you cannot use vim.
Vim has been designed to work with an environment, which includes
everything from your computer to the shell running it. If you're too
stupid to configure your tools, then don't use them, you might harm
yourself.
> - posting a message may also be too difficult or require more time than you
> have, seeing as that probably you want to do that thing now.
Well, your problem in the first place is that you did not want to
learn. If you've learned something, you might have actually not needed
to post a message. And by the way, you usually don't need to post a
message, as the answer is in the manual or in a simple search on your
favorite search engine.
Ah right, you don't know how to read, you miss half of your
keyboard, and right, you don't have a computer. That's not helping to
use vim.
> >Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> >that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> >therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> >configurations might help.
> People have no need to deal with hard-to-use tools when they have
> better things to do with their time. The tool is there for the user
> (it is a servant) not the other way around. There is no requirement
> whatsoever in life to keep up or be able to use a specific tool just
> for the sake of being able to use it.
indeed, and learning to drive a car is not useful, you can just jump
in and go where you want, because you've already done it in GTA? And you
might actually fly a plane as well, because learning to pilote it is
totally irrelevant, you used to throw paper planes at school (instead of
learning), how much harder would that be?
EVERY tool needs to be learned in order for someone to use it. A
human being does even need to learn to eat and to poop! That does not
mean the user is a servant of the tool. Every tool needs to be learned.
> But it all boils down to cost-benefit.
It takes more time to learn to fly a plane, but once you know it,
you can travel faster than by car. Using vim feels like flying on the
text edition, whereas other editors makes you slower.
> And sometimes, indeed, there is a gain in spending time with complaining
> when it is obvious that even though Vim may be perhaps lacking in certain
> important areas, there still might not be any tool that comes close to it,
> regardless.
Well, even though I'm part of the people that tend to cristicize
about vim from time to time, it's mostly because of the things that you
don't see, neither its interface or the experience. And those things are
being fixed (at least I hope) by neovim, and are because Bram started
working on vim while I was still playing on my Amstrad.
> And in that case investing effort in either improving the tool, or
> complaining to people that might improve it, or to break a mindset
> that the tool doesn't need improvement whatsoever, because the user is
> always to blame and never the tool, well.... perhaps then complaining
> is also a form of investment, instead of using a difficult help system
> it might be useful to complain about the difficulty of using it ;-)..
There I do not agree. The tool is very simple in its design, even
though it might be hard to learn. But once you understood the way it has
been designed, you can only be happy it is working that way and not
another.
> Such things are at the behest of the developer or maintainer or
> configurator. It should not be asked of every idividual user to improve the
> basic default user friendliness of an application.
that's choice/flexibility versus conveniency/ease of use. You have
as many vim configuration as there vim users. It's all customizable, and
if you like it, you can take it as is, if you don't you can change it. I
personally even configured emacs key moves in the insert mode (yes, I
dared!).
[…]
> And hence I have had years and years of being frustrated and not anyone to
> talk to it about, or about it. My apologies if that seems like unfair or
> anything, but still it is a good opportunity to get it out and also convey
> the sentiment that yes.
> Vim is not user friendly. Not the slightest.
> Or indeed, more positively described:
> Vim is user unfriendly. :p.
User friendliness is a very subjective thing. It is considered that
a terminal is not user friendly. You say vim is not userfriendly. But
this is non sense.
I find that the terminal is the best user experience ever, it feels
like talking to your computer, in a few keystrokes you can do hundreds
of actions that would need days to browse through all the menus, the
clicks and the panels a so called user friendly system would give.
All those systems, like Apple XCode that wants to do a lot of stuff
automagically for you, or the arduino IDE that compiles files all alone
without giving you any idea on the order of compilation? That's very
user-unfriendly to me, because it hides me essential part of how it's
working not giving me the ability to make it work the way I need it to
work.
Vim is not like that.
> And the help system itself is your enemy, not your friend. I will relate in
> the other email, if still allowed here ;-) :-/.
Like using any manual, it has its own conventions. Learn them and it
will be your best friend. Don't do that, and stay stupid.
> Hey I like this quote!!!
[…tl;dr]
> Entitled princess syndrome.
I may type fast in my editor, but it does not help reading faster.
Instead of writing down your life in a public mailing list, you'd better
go RTFM, talk with other users and learn how to better learn and love
vim! You were the one saying that you had better stuff to do in your
life than RTFM? But how compares talking about your life with RTFM to be
a better programmer and a smarter user of your editor, that will be four
favorite editor, but you don't know it yet?
BTW, I say you were talking about your life, but 320 lines that you
wrote *after* saying Bye in the discussion, in a mail that was already
320 lines… WTF?!
N.B.: This mail has been happily written with vim and using a dvorak
layout. And this has been a pleasure, and this is where the real poetry
is! (yeah, back on topic of the thread :-p)
my €.0002, sorry,
--
Guyzmo
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I really feel that kouzennoki is someone sent by the emacs-use
mailing list, if there's one, because they're just jalous of how
wonderful is the modal command in vim.
I stopped going on usenet about 10 years ago, and I have to admit I
have never seen such a density of non-sense and wtf in such a long mail
that at first I thought WTF! tl;dr. But finally I did read it.
ok, that's it for the tl;dr. If you're bored, don't want to do
another project or just cannot find sleep, get on reading. Otherwise,
just *plonk* this whole thread. That's what I should have done, but too
late, I read too much, and now I'm feeding the troll. And that one eats
your fingers too, so beware.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:17:32PM +0100, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
[…]
> >and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
> I'm sorry, but practice is a useless thing when it is required to have a
> meaningful experience AFTER the practice.
That sentence is just stupid. Reading, coding, and even *thinking*
is meaningful after the practice. You usually do not miss what you do
not have. And you can make a sense of something only after practicing
it.
> That whole mindset is just stupid. Learning in order to do something later
> on that you dislike doing.
Then don't do it, nobody forces you. If you don't like vim, use
emacs, nano, ed, cat!
> So normal learning takes place in the context of doing meaningful things.
> You want to do a certain thing, then you go and look up how to do it, or
> find out or discover how to do it. Then you do the thing, and on the next
> occassion of needing to do something, you repeat the process. In this way
> you work and you learn, and you learn as you work.
> And in this way you remember everything you learn, because every learning
> experience is meaningful and useful.
Indeed, and that's exactly the way I've been learning vim over the
last 10+ years. So here I'll talk about my very own experience: I first
read the tutorial, and understand some basic stuff. There are some I
agreed on, others less. I have never been a fan of the hjkl movements
(because this is so anti-dvorak layout), but I find myself using it
from time to time.
And over the last couple of years, I've discovered a group of people
that like to gather to drink, eat and troll happily, while showing off
new stuff discovered in our favorite editor. That group calls itself
tuppervim, and since then I made more progress than in the previous 10
years. And then I discover new movements like `}`, `]]` or `)`. And
if you don't know what it is? Just do :help it!
I'm not really a gamer, but they finally got me on doing some vim-
golf. And there I discovered the true beauty of the `t` and `f` motions.
I mean, I read about it in the manual, but thought how limited and
uninteresting they were. But, now I surprise myself using them daily.
Finally, I believe that vim, and more generally Vi, is a language,
and there's nothing natural about a language, it's something you do
learn. When you say that using the cursor and selecting etc‥ is "more
natural"/"easier", it's only because you've *learned* it first.
> But studying for 5 years on a university, just to get a diploma, or
> whatever... without doing really meaningful things with it. You forget
> everything, because it has never been relevant.
I spent 5 years on an university, and I feel the total opposite way,
I just never cared for the diploma, but was like a child in front of a
chocolate box picking his favorite chocolates each year.
I guess that if you havet hat point of view, you're lacking one of
the most important thing a human soul can have, it's curiosity!
> And asking someone to invest heavily in order to reap benefits in the far
> future (only to sacrifice your pleasure today) is just stupid. You could be
> spending that time achieving useful things, and not end up in some
> depressive or near or somewhat semi-depressive mood because you left the
> flow of having fun, and you are now studying boring stuff that you don't
> really need now.
Well, you're describing the way I feel when using inferior editors,
like emacs or sublime, I'm not even talking about notepad, or that thing
they call "text processor".
I'm using everyday vim, and using vim is a pleasure. I focus on what
I want to express or organize, and the editor is not getting in the way
whereas helping me to be faster at doing it.
So all in all, I guess that the real problem with vim is when you're
forced to use something else than vim that forces you to slow down and
care for trivial stuff like the font, the title, the alignment or what
else.
> >The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
> The basic problem is that even Vim's help system is not user friendly.
whaaaaaaat? May be you'd prefer that:
http://www.pointsincase.com/files/u2/word-paper-clip.jpg
> >>So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
> >>possible :p.
> >Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> >a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
>
> Everything is self-created, but it is created out of a desire or perceived
> need to use a certain thing or tool at a certain time or moment or place or
> location. When you would be better off abandoning the tool, instead of
> forcing it through.
> And the frustration results from a mis-appreciation of what is required in
> that moment. In your exhaustion or tiredness you may try to get something
> working with a form of stubborn persistence when you would be better off
> choosing to do something else. And out of this the frustration comes. Of
> course it is self-created. But it is self-created out of a desire to GET
> THIS THING WORKING, not out of a laziness to learn.
Or it comes from your total lack of curiosity. Instead of asking
yourself what you can earn, what can that tool give to you in your
everyday life, you're just whining about the first challenge you're
facing. Poor you.
I actually learned to use a dvorak layout 15 years ago, and it took
me two painful week to reach the same comfort that I had with *erty
keyboard. Today, 15 days look pretty much nothing compared to 15 years
of dvorak being my everyday normality.
But then the frustrating effort of 15 days being handicaped of
typing less than a key each second, and slowly learning to type faster
by doing exercise, trolling on usenet (where speed does not count) or
IRC (where it does), helped me a lot to get up to speed.
And who knows, if I haven't done that then, I might have ended up
with a double carpal tunnel syndrom, and ended up coding that way:
http://www.looknohands.me/ (that girl is amazing, btw)
But luckily for me, I'm a dvorak user, and I like to think that not
only I've typed comfortably for more than 15 years, but I'm having my
hands in good wealth!
> Because there is no need to learn the fucking thing when you have no
> need to do that. Or to even use that. Like I said: learning something
> if you have a real good reason to do a thing is excellent, learning
> something if you had better spent your time elsewhere doing the same
> thing with less effort is pointless.
Because actually the whole point of learning vim, and being patient
to learn it little things at a time is to do things with less effort. I
know no other tool that do as many operations as vim in as few
keystrokes. For example, reformating the current paragraph or your quote
is just done by typing gqap. But I could delete the whole current
paragraph by typing dap. And paste it before the previous quote by doing
[[p.
Yes, it looks weird, it needs training and some effort. But that's
what computer scientists do: when there's a repetitive boring task, we
take some effort to make it never happen again. I'm not taking the mouse
again to shift select and then ^x to then click again and ^v. (thinking
about that makes my carpal canal hurt).
> Why on earth select a tool that requires more investment when you have
> alternatives available that cost less?
STOP USING YOUR COMPUTER! It needs you to do some investment, as you
got to actually type on a thing called keyboard to make it do something.
And then you may even have to think.
> The logical, rational and sensible choice is to ditch the expensive tool
> (for that moment, or situation, or time) and to use the thing that already
> works. Or works with less cost.
Yup, stop using it, and use a TV. It costs less, and it's easier to use.
> >The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> >If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> >are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
> >
> >a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> >b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> >c) Google for a fix, or
> >d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
>
> What if:
> - you have no time to look up details of the terminal config
> - you don't even have a good terminal at your disposal
> - you have no time to fix .vimrc while spending perhaps 2 hours getting the
> thing working because of your failing mental state
> - fixing a thing that requires more time to fix it (and then do it) than it
> does to work with the limitations is not a good spending of time, unless you
> have the intent to let it be an asset for the future. But if the limiting
> condition may well be gone within a week, such a thing would not apply, as
> you would be investing time in a solution that you can throw a way a few
> steps down the road.
and what if your display has the wrong brightness, and you miss half
the keys of the keyboards (oh, right, that's already your case), and you
do not have a mouse, and you do not have an Internet connection, and you
do not have electricity, and you actually don't even have a computer?
Then yes, you cannot use vim.
Vim has been designed to work with an environment, which includes
everything from your computer to the shell running it. If you're too
stupid to configure your tools, then don't use them, you might harm
yourself.
> - posting a message may also be too difficult or require more time than you
> have, seeing as that probably you want to do that thing now.
Well, your problem in the first place is that you did not want to
learn. If you've learned something, you might have actually not needed
to post a message. And by the way, you usually don't need to post a
message, as the answer is in the manual or in a simple search on your
favorite search engine.
Ah right, you don't know how to read, you miss half of your
keyboard, and right, you don't have a computer. That's not helping to
use vim.
> >Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> >that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> >therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> >configurations might help.
> People have no need to deal with hard-to-use tools when they have
> better things to do with their time. The tool is there for the user
> (it is a servant) not the other way around. There is no requirement
> whatsoever in life to keep up or be able to use a specific tool just
> for the sake of being able to use it.
indeed, and learning to drive a car is not useful, you can just jump
in and go where you want, because you've already done it in GTA? And you
might actually fly a plane as well, because learning to pilote it is
totally irrelevant, you used to throw paper planes at school (instead of
learning), how much harder would that be?
EVERY tool needs to be learned in order for someone to use it. A
human being does even need to learn to eat and to poop! That does not
mean the user is a servant of the tool. Every tool needs to be learned.
> But it all boils down to cost-benefit.
It takes more time to learn to fly a plane, but once you know it,
you can travel faster than by car. Using vim feels like flying on the
text edition, whereas other editors makes you slower.
> And sometimes, indeed, there is a gain in spending time with complaining
> when it is obvious that even though Vim may be perhaps lacking in certain
> important areas, there still might not be any tool that comes close to it,
> regardless.
Well, even though I'm part of the people that tend to cristicize
about vim from time to time, it's mostly because of the things that you
don't see, neither its interface or the experience. And those things are
being fixed (at least I hope) by neovim, and are because Bram started
working on vim while I was still playing on my Amstrad.
> And in that case investing effort in either improving the tool, or
> complaining to people that might improve it, or to break a mindset
> that the tool doesn't need improvement whatsoever, because the user is
> always to blame and never the tool, well.... perhaps then complaining
> is also a form of investment, instead of using a difficult help system
> it might be useful to complain about the difficulty of using it ;-)..
There I do not agree. The tool is very simple in its design, even
though it might be hard to learn. But once you understood the way it has
been designed, you can only be happy it is working that way and not
another.
> Such things are at the behest of the developer or maintainer or
> configurator. It should not be asked of every idividual user to improve the
> basic default user friendliness of an application.
that's choice/flexibility versus conveniency/ease of use. You have
as many vim configuration as there vim users. It's all customizable, and
if you like it, you can take it as is, if you don't you can change it. I
personally even configured emacs key moves in the insert mode (yes, I
dared!).
[…]
> And hence I have had years and years of being frustrated and not anyone to
> talk to it about, or about it. My apologies if that seems like unfair or
> anything, but still it is a good opportunity to get it out and also convey
> the sentiment that yes.
> Vim is not user friendly. Not the slightest.
> Or indeed, more positively described:
> Vim is user unfriendly. :p.
User friendliness is a very subjective thing. It is considered that
a terminal is not user friendly. You say vim is not userfriendly. But
this is non sense.
I find that the terminal is the best user experience ever, it feels
like talking to your computer, in a few keystrokes you can do hundreds
of actions that would need days to browse through all the menus, the
clicks and the panels a so called user friendly system would give.
All those systems, like Apple XCode that wants to do a lot of stuff
automagically for you, or the arduino IDE that compiles files all alone
without giving you any idea on the order of compilation? That's very
user-unfriendly to me, because it hides me essential part of how it's
working not giving me the ability to make it work the way I need it to
work.
Vim is not like that.
> And the help system itself is your enemy, not your friend. I will relate in
> the other email, if still allowed here ;-) :-/.
Like using any manual, it has its own conventions. Learn them and it
will be your best friend. Don't do that, and stay stupid.
> Hey I like this quote!!!
[…tl;dr]
> Entitled princess syndrome.
I may type fast in my editor, but it does not help reading faster.
Instead of writing down your life in a public mailing list, you'd better
go RTFM, talk with other users and learn how to better learn and love
vim! You were the one saying that you had better stuff to do in your
life than RTFM? But how compares talking about your life with RTFM to be
a better programmer and a smarter user of your editor, that will be four
favorite editor, but you don't know it yet?
BTW, I say you were talking about your life, but 320 lines that you
wrote *after* saying Bye in the discussion, in a mail that was already
320 lines… WTF?!
N.B.: This mail has been happily written with vim and using a dvorak
layout. And this has been a pleasure, and this is where the real poetry
is! (yeah, back on topic of the thread :-p)
my €.0002, sorry,
--
Guyzmo
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Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
Oh, by the way:
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
That sentiment is mistaken. That concept is off, or wrong.
The idea of trying versus doing is age old, but it is not like that: it is
of trying versus succeeding.
It is fine to try a thing.
But what the quote really refers to is the sentiment of "I can try" or
"it is possible for us to try to achieve that".
You immediately notice the weirdness of that statement. If you think the
best you can do is try, but not really hoping to succeed, that closes down
the realm of possibility. If you are not clear of your success, or the
possibility of actually succeeding, you will abandon your attempt even
before having made the first step.
"I can try" -> "Do, or do not; there is no try" then becomes a bummer
statement making him feel bad.
Instead of answering "But you can succeed, right? You know you can." and
he goes "I guess" and the answer is "well, then do it." Go.
And if you want I'll be gone for at least several weeks, because I have
work to do. I guess I just wanted to break open the space of even being
allowed to discuss anything that could really be improved about Vi. Vim.
Which I guess is stupid, but hey, here I am.
Or perhaps not at all.
I don't think I am more than 5% present in the world at the moment.
In the sense of being able to show my real self.
Anyway. Apologies. But being my actual normal healthy self would result in
decapitation at the moment.
Cya.
>
> On 30.01.15 22:59, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
>> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
>> favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a certain
>> thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
>
> The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
>
> (Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
> accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
> Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
> headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
> seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
> don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
> "what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
> it's years before I need it again.)
>
>> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
>> possible :p.
>
> Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
>
>> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing compared
>> to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what they should, I
>> don't have to remember HJKL keys
>
> The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
>
> a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> c) Google for a fix, or
> d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
>
> Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> configurations might help.
>
> In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
>
> set showmode
>
> I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
>
> " Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
> if &term =~ "xterm"
> let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
> let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
> endif
>
> and if muscle memory prefers:
>
> " These days I expect to be out of insert mode, after a line change:
> inoremap <Up> ^[<Up>
> inoremap <Down> ^[<Down>
>
> If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
> defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
> advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
> competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
>
> All the best,
>
> Erik
> (Who uses only vim - every day - and cannot remember losing any text
> during an edit session, at least not in the last twenty years. (Some of
> that might have been vi, where the risk of losing a paragraph was greater.))
>
> --
> Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
> the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
> like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
>
> --
> --
> You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
> For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
>
> ---
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_use+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
That sentiment is mistaken. That concept is off, or wrong.
The idea of trying versus doing is age old, but it is not like that: it is
of trying versus succeeding.
It is fine to try a thing.
But what the quote really refers to is the sentiment of "I can try" or
"it is possible for us to try to achieve that".
You immediately notice the weirdness of that statement. If you think the
best you can do is try, but not really hoping to succeed, that closes down
the realm of possibility. If you are not clear of your success, or the
possibility of actually succeeding, you will abandon your attempt even
before having made the first step.
"I can try" -> "Do, or do not; there is no try" then becomes a bummer
statement making him feel bad.
Instead of answering "But you can succeed, right? You know you can." and
he goes "I guess" and the answer is "well, then do it." Go.
And if you want I'll be gone for at least several weeks, because I have
work to do. I guess I just wanted to break open the space of even being
allowed to discuss anything that could really be improved about Vi. Vim.
Which I guess is stupid, but hey, here I am.
Or perhaps not at all.
I don't think I am more than 5% present in the world at the moment.
In the sense of being able to show my real self.
Anyway. Apologies. But being my actual normal healthy self would result in
decapitation at the moment.
Cya.
>
> On 30.01.15 22:59, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
>> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
>> favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a certain
>> thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
>
> The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
>
> (Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
> accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
> Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
> headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
> seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
> don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
> "what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
> it's years before I need it again.)
>
>> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
>> possible :p.
>
> Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
>
>> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing compared
>> to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what they should, I
>> don't have to remember HJKL keys
>
> The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
>
> a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> c) Google for a fix, or
> d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
>
> Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> configurations might help.
>
> In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
>
> set showmode
>
> I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
>
> " Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
> if &term =~ "xterm"
> let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
> let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
> endif
>
> and if muscle memory prefers:
>
> " These days I expect to be out of insert mode, after a line change:
> inoremap <Up> ^[<Up>
> inoremap <Down> ^[<Down>
>
> If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
> defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
> advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
> competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
>
> All the best,
>
> Erik
> (Who uses only vim - every day - and cannot remember losing any text
> during an edit session, at least not in the last twenty years. (Some of
> that might have been vi, where the risk of losing a paragraph was greater.))
>
> --
> Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
> the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
> like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
>
> --
> --
> You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
> For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_use" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_use+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
>
> I have a better idea: Howsabout you leave off here and go troll some other
> mailing list?
>
I am not trolling, my friend. Or enemy, whatever ;-).
In case you didn't know, trolling is the conscious intent of annoying people
for no good purpose.
In case you also didn't know, 90% of the time that people call "troll!!" they
are vastly mistaken about the person's intentions.
>
> *plonk*
>
Point proven.
Oh, and why would you want me to go "trolling" some *other* or (OTHER)
mailinglist? You would seek to hurt other people just to escape from it
yourself? Feeling like a victim, perhaps? :P :P :P.
Alright, I guess that could be seen as an attempt of trolling lol.
You want me to do it, hey, I'm not too bad.
Bram didn't feel like a victim. He just offered a suggestion and left it
at that.
In any case, if you want an answer to that question.
I am :p.
Hahaha.
It is not like I have chosen you as the sole person (or people) to feel
miserable with ;-).
But if you really wanted to get me to back off, you would have said
something like "I understand your sentiment, but please understand that we
are not here exactly to listen to complete life stories, if that is what
you are intending to do. Please notice that we are here for regular
support requests and the like, and leave it at that."
And then the 'trolling' nature of it would dissipate, and the meaningful
things would remain.
> I have a better idea: Howsabout you leave off here and go troll some other
> mailing list?
>
I am not trolling, my friend. Or enemy, whatever ;-).
In case you didn't know, trolling is the conscious intent of annoying people
for no good purpose.
In case you also didn't know, 90% of the time that people call "troll!!" they
are vastly mistaken about the person's intentions.
>
> *plonk*
>
Point proven.
Oh, and why would you want me to go "trolling" some *other* or (OTHER)
mailinglist? You would seek to hurt other people just to escape from it
yourself? Feeling like a victim, perhaps? :P :P :P.
Alright, I guess that could be seen as an attempt of trolling lol.
You want me to do it, hey, I'm not too bad.
Bram didn't feel like a victim. He just offered a suggestion and left it
at that.
In any case, if you want an answer to that question.
I am :p.
Hahaha.
It is not like I have chosen you as the sole person (or people) to feel
miserable with ;-).
But if you really wanted to get me to back off, you would have said
something like "I understand your sentiment, but please understand that we
are not here exactly to listen to complete life stories, if that is what
you are intending to do. Please notice that we are here for regular
support requests and the like, and leave it at that."
And then the 'trolling' nature of it would dissipate, and the meaningful
things would remain.
Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:17 PM, <kouzennoki@gmail.com> wrote:
I have another draft email in response to the earlier responses in gmail waiting, (not ready), but...
I have a better idea: Howsabout you leave off here and go troll some other mailing list?
I am dealing with a woman victim.
*plonk*
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Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
> the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
> of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
> clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
> the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
> you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
> undo, then:
I have another draft email in response to the earlier responses in gmail
waiting, (not ready), but...
You can argue all you want that I should ensure proper circumstances (such
as having a good computer or a good terminal), but any form of requirement
in order to not muck up, means that the amount of dependency or
requirement goes up, and hence with greater dependency becomes greater
risk of failure.
Let's just say I've had to use a bad web terminal to access some files. A
really really bad terminal. And the keyboard here is also broken (I have a
laptop now) and hardly something to blame Vim for, but the colours in
basically every file I opened were completely off (sections being
mis-coloured with the syntax colouring) for whatever reason, often even
hiding (blacking) pieces of text. I've had to try to remove the syntax
hilighting (which sometimes worked, but I often forgot, or didn't want to
spend time finding out to make it permanet) and I've had to page down a
few times, then page back up to see if the initial text would display, and
so on.
I'm just saying that having a tool that will fail you if certain
requirements are not exactly met, is just not a safe tool. And if you then
argue that "then meet those requirements" that doesn't suddenly make the
tool more fail-safe or more dependable. It is precisely this mindset that
pervades the minds of ordinary people in the sense that people often take
up dependencies (such as these days, cloud providers that are outside of
personal control completely) and then claim that those providers or
systems are safe. But current conditions will not always hold, and safety
and security and stability revolve around being able to keep functioning
in less-than ideal conditions.
And all of those work-arounds take time, and in less-than-ideal conditions
perhaps or perchance you would not HAVE that time. Any tool that requires
endless amounts of study just in order to do simple things, will simply
fail if those ideal circumstances are no longer there.
Sometimes you have to accomplish important things within minutes. A tool
that will fail and require dedication, love, endless amounts of time,
patience, concentration, awareness, lack of lack of sleep, and so on.....
...just becomes a worthless tool. If you have (or would have) a phone that
would only show the current time if network time servers are available,
that sort of thing.... it is dependencies that will seriously bite you in
conditions that are actually meaningful to achieve something.
I've had no serious internet access for months, I am currently on a
hospital wifi link that requires acceptance of some license terms every
time I connect. It is an area with lacking coverage for an important
mobile provider (my own, supposedly ;-)).
If you cannot depend on it (or yourself) when you are in a tight spot,
what use is it really?
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
I'm sorry, but practice is a useless thing when it is required to have a
meaningful experience AFTER the practice.
That whole mindset is just stupid. Learning in order to do something later
on that you dislike doing.
The whole idea of professional schooling. Doing projects that are
worthless because they are repeated by a million (supposedly) students
every year, and there is nothing creative or meaningful about them. And
after the fact you can just throw it away because it never created
anything, it only reacted.
So normal learning takes place in the context of doing meaningful things.
You want to do a certain thing, then you go and look up how to do it, or
find out or discover how to do it. Then you do the thing, and on the next
occassion of needing to do something, you repeat the process. In this way
you work and you learn, and you learn as you work.
And in this way you remember everything you learn, because every learning
experience is meaningful and useful.
But studying for 5 years on a university, just to get a diploma, or
whatever... without doing really meaningful things with it. You forget
everything, because it has never been relevant.
The only things that are relevant are the needs that arise out of self,
which are the things you really want to do out of a joy of doing it.
And if you are at that point wanting to do something, and you have a way
of doing it, that way is "preferable" in the sense that there is no real
reason to find another way that requires more study.
It is just a matter of cost versus benefit.
And asking someone to invest heavily in order to reap benefits in the far
future (only to sacrifice your pleasure today) is just stupid. You could
be spending that time achieving useful things, and not end up in some
depressive or near or somewhat semi-depressive mood because you left the
flow of having fun, and you are now studying boring stuff that you don't
really need now.
> The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
The basic problem is that even Vim's help system is not user friendly.
> (Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
> accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
> Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
> headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
> seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
> don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
> "what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
> it's years before I need it again.)
That is basically the entire proof I need for knowing that this is indeed
for you as well, a difficult program to use. What on earth would require
29 pages of personal notes just to use an editor (no matter how powerful)
unless that editor required heavy investment just to be able to use it???
Suppose you lost that file. What then???
The only time I kept help notes was back when I was like 12 and I was
making printouts of ASCII tables and the like, because there was yet no
internet. Today I only print tech web pages mostly. I keep them around for
easy reference. I am wanting though to find or create for myself a better
notekeeping system, I had been using the lousy self-contained
javascript-wiki called TiddlyWiki.
My attempts were at DokuWiki. I have installed DokuWiki on my home little
server thing. Except that the programmers have decided sometime in the
recent past, apparently, to move all of the configuration at startup into
one big clump, that will execute on every instantiation, even when 80% is
not necessary. And since its primary web page accesses that site about 3
times (for stylesheets as well, and even some tracking image --- imagine
that, a site that uses a tracker image to track its own requests ---
idiocy!!). Since the little file/web server is way slow, those requests
each took up perhaps a second each. Because even though PHP has this
binary cache engine (APC opcode cache) that doesn't mean the environment
is kept between requests (since it is stateless HTTP). So you have
*STUPID* requests for pages or images (even the code necessary to
determine whether to send a "cached" or "not changed" response required
the entire environment to load each time) that each take up like a second,
which means every page load takes up about 3 seconds to be processed by
the server.
Anyway, I went about hacking that environment loader and within a few
hours I had the requests down to about 400ms for the stylesheet and so on.
Without losing anything. Whatever. Haven't been able to continue with it
yet. Still sitting there on server. I may have had it down to 80ms even
for the cache responses, not sure anymore.
It creates a cache or "parsed" version of new stylesheets (when
configuration is changed, they are regenerated) so you could simply load
the entire environment when this regen was called for, but it could be
delayed so as to be faster with the http cacher.
Okay.
>> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
>> possible :p.
>
> Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
Everything is self-created, but it is created out of a desire or perceived
need to use a certain thing or tool at a certain time or moment or place
or location. When you would be better off abandoning the tool, instead of
forcing it through.
And the frustration results from a mis-appreciation of what is required in
that moment. In your exhaustion or tiredness you may try to get something
working with a form of stubborn persistence when you would be better off
choosing to do something else. And out of this the frustration comes. Of
course it is self-created. But it is self-created out of a desire to GET
THIS THING WORKING, not out of a laziness to learn.
Because there is no need to learn the fucking thing when you have no need
to do that.
Or to even use that.
Like I said: learning something if you have a real good reason to do a
thing is excellent, learning something if you had better spent your time
elsewhere doing the same thing with less effort is pointless.
Why on earth select a tool that requires more investment when you have
alternatives available that cost less?
The logical, rational and sensible choice is to ditch the expensive tool
(for that moment, or situation, or time) and to use the thing that already
works. Or works with less cost.
> The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
>
> a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> c) Google for a fix, or
> d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
What if:
- you have no time to look up details of the terminal config
- you don't even have a good terminal at your disposal
- you have no time to fix .vimrc while spending perhaps 2 hours getting
the thing working because of your failing mental state
- fixing a thing that requires more time to fix it (and then do it) than
it does to work with the limitations is not a good spending of time,
unless you have the intent to let it be an asset for the future. But if
the limiting condition may well be gone within a week, such a thing would
not apply, as you would be investing time in a solution that you can throw
a way a few steps down the road.
- posting a message may also be too difficult or require more time than
you have, seeing as that probably you want to do that thing now.
Which again falls in the category of investment that you can not use now,
or even something that would be easier solved with the other methods
anyway.
>
> Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> configurations might help.
People have no need to deal with hard-to-use tools when they have better
things to do with their time. The tool is there for the user (it is a
servant) not the other way around. There is no requirement whatsoever in
life to keep up or be able to use a specific tool just for the sake of
being able to use it.
So, simply put: nobody should be asked to do senseless things just so they
can keep using Vim, when using Vim is not a real requirement for anyone.
Like someone said, there are perhaps plenty of alternatives. But it all
boils down to cost-benefit.
And sometimes, indeed, there is a gain in spending time with complaining
when it is obvious that even though Vim may be perhaps lacking in certain
important areas, there still might not be any tool that comes close to it,
regardless.
And in that case investing effort in either improving the tool, or
complaining to people that might improve it, or to break a mindset that
the tool doesn't need improvement whatsoever, because the user is always
to blame and never the tool, well.... perhaps then complaining is also a
form of investment, instead of using a difficult help system it might be
useful to complain about the difficulty of using it ;-)..
(More about that in the other mail, I guess.... :( ).
> In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
>
> set showmode
>
> I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
>
> " Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
> if &term =~ "xterm"
> let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
> let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
> endif
Such things are at the behest of the developer or maintainer or
configurator. It should not be asked of every idividual user to improve
the basic default user friendliness of an application.
Like I would argue in the other email:
An hour spent by a developer is worth a million hours spent by users.
Because even 10 minutes of work might save your users a billion minutes
when all combined and accumulated.
That is just my mindset as a programmer. I don't want to be buried by
support requests that I could have prevented, you see. Or frustrated
users, that would complain about stuff I should have done for them,
instead of asking them to do my work.
It is a macro versus micro thing. If you do the macro right, the micro
disappears. If you fail at the macro, the micro will get the most of you
and bury you in endless demands from users.
> If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
> defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
> advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
> competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
Sorry, not necessary. My competence is not at stake. There is just no true
need to 'fight a battle you cannot win." In the sense that if you seek out
the challenges that fit you, you will always be "enough" and there is then
also not a need to condescend on a user's "competence" level.
And my only 'fault' is to keep trying to achieve something with Vim when
it is too difficult.
Which is not something you can really blame a person for, it is quite
ordinary human behaviour to persist with something in a stubbornness
out of a tiredness or a depression. Which then causes a lot of frustration
when the tool consequently requires an attentive, waking mindset that can
concentrate always.
Like a television that will only turn on if you can instantly recollect or
memorize or take from your memory a 30 character password.
Not a very useful television.
Like I said, if Vim is only useful when I am at my best, then perhaps
(depending on circumstances) 80% of the time it is ready for the
disposable trash department.
Quite simply honestly and clearly put.
Again, it is not like there is anything that can replace it. I never liked
Emacs one bit, Pico and Nano are worthless really for anything other than
writing emails (that is just my take on it really, or my perception)
there was also a thing called Joe (Joe's Own Editor) which I guess was
nice for a time and I might return to it some time.
So what I was saying is: we are not here for the tool, the tool is here
for us. (It is a basic misconception about the role of the feminine and
the masculine, btw. You see it everywhere: servants (or people providing
services) pretending or acting like the client is there for them (needing
to fulfill requirements and whatnot, not being allowed to make their own
choices, the supplier wants to have his way out of some ego desire, it has
to be done in a certain way for the servant instead of the servant being
there for the master. In the sense that the service provider will start to
bolt if something is not to his/her liking. You ask a table, the creator
insists on creating 3 prototypes when you are fine with just one. You ask
a curtain, the seller insists that it doesn't look well in your home and
won't sell it to you or refuses to help you find something you like
yourself. You ask something to have your coat repaired, they insist you
are better off letting that person himself handle it. In the sense that
you ask the person to bring the coat to a repair shop, but that person
wants to take home the credit himself for repairing it. And so on.
Depending on the subculture or quality level (expensiveness, sometimes) of
what you are dealing with, people may be more or less willing to just
fulfill simple wishes.
The more exclusive, so to speak, service providers are often geared or
focussed on creating happy customer and really listening to his or her
wishes. The more cheap ones often have no patience, no desire, no time, no
room, no space, to listen to anything that deviates from what they think
should be done.
Of course it all boils down to how well you are feeling.
But in Open Source Software it is not an uncommon thing for the feeling to
exist that the users are there for the tool (think of all the Linux
fanboyism on certain forums or blogsites) and the tool becomes a kind of
sacred icon or emblem, a religion.
And Vim.... well it is a bit of a religion for some people some times, I
guess..
Again, the tool is there for the user.
And If I am Complaining Here with a sense of Moaning..... or frustration.
It is just because I have never really voiced these things before ever to
anyone who could listen (because I know virtually nobody who uses these
systems, etcetera). Even if I started using Vim back in perhaps 1998??
Or a few years before, but obviously I had not much to go for it without
internet access. Say I started really using it on a debian server in my
student home in the year 2000.
I haven't ever really used another editor on (remote) servers.
Nor have I ever heard anyone talk of another editor (or mention it) (or me
reading about it) (or reading about someone mentioning it) that gave the
impression of something else actually being worthwhile.
And hence I have had years and years of being frustrated and not anyone to
talk to it about, or about it. My apologies if that seems like unfair or
anything, but still it is a good opportunity to get it out and also convey
the sentiment that yes.
Vim is not user friendly. Not the slightest.
Or indeed, more positively described:
Vim is user unfriendly. :p.
And the help system itself is your enemy, not your friend. I will relate
in the other email, if still allowed here ;-) :-/.
Bye.
> Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
> the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
> like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
Hey I like this quote!!!
I am dealing with a woman victim. But she has been victimized mostly by
other men. In the sense that people usually talk people (women) into
feeling more and more of a victim, or being more and more victimized, when
this woman's initial experience or perception was not so at all.
People called "caretakers" or "in positions of authority" (in dutch there
is a single word for it : voogden. Parents are types of voogd. But in a
real sense, government, police, mental health care, child protective
services, victim protection/treatment services, and so on, and so on, and
so on, also fulfill those roles. They try to take away self-determination
and self-respect and self-confidence, because a weaker person is easier
controlled. )) - and a person that you can control, is a person that you
can "help". But this requires often the person to either feel like a
victim, or like a villain. And in the context of women versus men, it is
pretty clear which is which.
There is a story from the USA from some 10 years ago in which a prank
caller that acted like police got young female employees of McDonald's and
the like to undress with nothing more than vague allegations and threats.
This particular caller (he had done it like 40 times before getting
caught) walked away free. He got a female manager to undress the 18-year
old girl. The female manager walked away with about 400k or 500k in USD
worth of damages. The female manager then handed the girl to her fiancee
who was ordered by the caller to have the girl suck his cock. The guy was
like drawn into a situation in which he was completely confounded and lost
and he had first been ordered to spank the girl, which was quite a
pleasurable experience to watch, I must say. (It was all recorded on
safety cam). (And like broadcasted in near full view). But after that the
caller told the guy to ask the girl to suck him. The girl willfully
obeyed, or moreover, or more likely, already was feeling this victim
identity beginning to serve her, and she wilfully complied.
The girl walked away with about 1.2 million US dollars in damages from
McDonalds.
For one little blowjob.
Quite a good hooker, I must say. Most don't earn that much that fast. ;-).
Serious here!!!!
The guy walked away with 5 years in jail.
The poor sucker who got sucked into a situation not of this own devising,
and who was asked by the woman who basically controlled him in the
relationship he was in (as women usually do and they have the upper hand
in ordinary customary relationships in our cultures) and who got one lousy
blowjob as a "reward" that he didn't even really want (or not at all).....
got punished.
But the point and moral of the story is.
The female manager who played the largest role in this girl's humilation
as she actively sought to suck the guy for rewards (her mind was probably
already aware of probable results) was not punished at all but ALSO
received a very large sum in damages from her employer.
Bah! Bye! Good riddance of my lousy job!
What is your take on that? The girl acts on television like she loved her
job. But we all know working for a McDonalds is like being a modern day
slave and it can cost you your health and everything for minimum wage. A
friend of mine (or former friend) saw his physical health get drained as
he was working so much just to pay his rent in the city of London, that he
didn't even have money to pay the bus or buy a bike. The wages were so
bad, that he had to walk for perhaps an hour and a half, or even longer,
to get to his work. And back. And then perhaps 6 hours of sleep. And go
on.
The girl was able to quit the job she hated and get a large sum of money
for a simple act of cooperation that in this culture is regarded as the
greatest of all sins, almost, or in any case something extremely extremely
extremely extremely terrible. Which it is not. When it is not. It is a
blowjob. Nothing more.
People are put in deep victim mode around sex all the time, which causes
the experience to grow in guilt over time. The experience itself was not
even all that bad, but when people habitually keep talking to you as if
the worst thing ever happened to you, it quickly becomes in your mind the
worst of the worst.
But the most important aspect of it is that victim and villain are
separated and contrasted so much, and the possible punishment of the
villain only cements this in the mind of the 'victim', that the victim can
never let go of the experience or the guilt around it or surrounding it,
or as perhaps part of it (not really the case, guilt is something created
in the past or the future, or about the past or about the future) -- and
the end result is that the victim is ever plagued by recurring nightmares
because everyone has been telling her for years quite incessantly how
terrible an experience it has been, that she has forgotten the reality of
it and cannot even longer remember how she felt back then or before it had
happened.
And even feels guilty about enjoying thoughts or fantasies about it.
How it could also have played out in a more ...interesting or pleasurable
way.
(JUST MY TAKE ON THINGS).
It Dutch they say "turning a mosquito into an elephant". They also say "a
storm in a glass of water".
So just saying: victimhood is not the property of women. It is the
property of this culture. The McDonald's girl was acutely aware of
possible results because of deep experience in this culture's sphere. She
would have always KNOWN that everyone would feel sorry for her and treat
her in special ways and the rewards this could reap for her.
In the end of the show the commentator asked
"Do you think you will ever be able to put this in the past?"
And the girl replies
"I don't think I ever will" with dollar signs in her eyes, because
cooperating with the show is of course also part of maintaining or
creating the impression that she is a really sorry person in need of
compensation.
But if she can never get over it, it is because of the money she received
for something self-humiliating, or call it "whoring", and she has turned
her own humiliation into an asset. As well as the poor guy going to jail
for something he didn't really do (she did it).
Guilt complex we call this. The poor girl is going to feel guilty about
what happened to the guy she sucked.
Pangs of guilt we call it ;-).
And then people tell her "don't think about it, he got what he deserved".
And she doesn't really feel the same. Not anymore, if ever.
And often thinks whether basing her life on such a ..greedy.... for no
other word... damages claim was really such a great idea.
For no other reason that she has made herself into a public whore.
And even a movie being made about it that is nothing other than
entertainment.
It is called "Compliance" (2012). They call it a docu-drama or perhaps a
thriller, but it is just entertainment, nothing really meaningful or
anything. Haven't seen it yet though, I might download it in a few.
So now her story of victimhood is just a means for other people to make
money as well.
========================
Anyway, I may have acted like a victim (as well) (as a guy) and I have
certainly received suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. And I might be
doing that now -- acting like a victim.
But you just go on trying to transform the deeper issue in your mind (or
neck-muscles, perhaps) that caused the experience and you really have no
time for second thoughts, or to doubt yourself constantly.
You have to keep going the way you know will solve the answer. Why solve
the answer and not the question?
I guess because the questions are usually not all that hard but the
answers that other people have, including yourself, might be way complex
or more complicated. You might be lost in a morass, or in the woods, or
whatever you can call it in English. And other people are also lost: they
seek to constantly complicate things further, and act like there can never
be a solution ever (other than punishment of the guy) and the further they
go (or yourself, perhaps) -- the further those other people go, the more
they do to make an even bigger mess and tangle of that ball of thread.
Because the one thing they fear is reconciliaton of "victim" and "villain"
who just had an experience that they both contributed to and that was
nothing of a problem whatsoever in the mind of a clear person, but to the
minds of those "caretaker" people serious bad shit was happening that
needed to be dealt with.
And the girl itself (in this case, it is what you would indeed call a
girl) was like "this guy is not so bad, I am just dissing him and
threatening him to get him off my back ASAP". And the victimizing people
then go "oh my, the girl doesn't want that thing, CALL THE COPS".
Suddenly a girl's desires turn into Law. Into LAW. A girl's wish is the
command of the lawkeepers. She merely has to mention that she doesn't like
something, and the lawkeepers spring into action to deal with the threat.
Like that princess on the pea. Who can't sleep when the slightest thing is
wrong. And the white knights come into being to protect her against that
pea.
Oh no! The girl cannot sleep! Quickly, arrange a world forum meeting! We
have to deal with this situation!!!
Entitled princess syndrome.
> Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
> the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
> of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
> clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
> the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
> you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
> undo, then:
I have another draft email in response to the earlier responses in gmail
waiting, (not ready), but...
You can argue all you want that I should ensure proper circumstances (such
as having a good computer or a good terminal), but any form of requirement
in order to not muck up, means that the amount of dependency or
requirement goes up, and hence with greater dependency becomes greater
risk of failure.
Let's just say I've had to use a bad web terminal to access some files. A
really really bad terminal. And the keyboard here is also broken (I have a
laptop now) and hardly something to blame Vim for, but the colours in
basically every file I opened were completely off (sections being
mis-coloured with the syntax colouring) for whatever reason, often even
hiding (blacking) pieces of text. I've had to try to remove the syntax
hilighting (which sometimes worked, but I often forgot, or didn't want to
spend time finding out to make it permanet) and I've had to page down a
few times, then page back up to see if the initial text would display, and
so on.
I'm just saying that having a tool that will fail you if certain
requirements are not exactly met, is just not a safe tool. And if you then
argue that "then meet those requirements" that doesn't suddenly make the
tool more fail-safe or more dependable. It is precisely this mindset that
pervades the minds of ordinary people in the sense that people often take
up dependencies (such as these days, cloud providers that are outside of
personal control completely) and then claim that those providers or
systems are safe. But current conditions will not always hold, and safety
and security and stability revolve around being able to keep functioning
in less-than ideal conditions.
And all of those work-arounds take time, and in less-than-ideal conditions
perhaps or perchance you would not HAVE that time. Any tool that requires
endless amounts of study just in order to do simple things, will simply
fail if those ideal circumstances are no longer there.
Sometimes you have to accomplish important things within minutes. A tool
that will fail and require dedication, love, endless amounts of time,
patience, concentration, awareness, lack of lack of sleep, and so on.....
...just becomes a worthless tool. If you have (or would have) a phone that
would only show the current time if network time servers are available,
that sort of thing.... it is dependencies that will seriously bite you in
conditions that are actually meaningful to achieve something.
I've had no serious internet access for months, I am currently on a
hospital wifi link that requires acceptance of some license terms every
time I connect. It is an area with lacking coverage for an important
mobile provider (my own, supposedly ;-)).
If you cannot depend on it (or yourself) when you are in a tight spot,
what use is it really?
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
I'm sorry, but practice is a useless thing when it is required to have a
meaningful experience AFTER the practice.
That whole mindset is just stupid. Learning in order to do something later
on that you dislike doing.
The whole idea of professional schooling. Doing projects that are
worthless because they are repeated by a million (supposedly) students
every year, and there is nothing creative or meaningful about them. And
after the fact you can just throw it away because it never created
anything, it only reacted.
So normal learning takes place in the context of doing meaningful things.
You want to do a certain thing, then you go and look up how to do it, or
find out or discover how to do it. Then you do the thing, and on the next
occassion of needing to do something, you repeat the process. In this way
you work and you learn, and you learn as you work.
And in this way you remember everything you learn, because every learning
experience is meaningful and useful.
But studying for 5 years on a university, just to get a diploma, or
whatever... without doing really meaningful things with it. You forget
everything, because it has never been relevant.
The only things that are relevant are the needs that arise out of self,
which are the things you really want to do out of a joy of doing it.
And if you are at that point wanting to do something, and you have a way
of doing it, that way is "preferable" in the sense that there is no real
reason to find another way that requires more study.
It is just a matter of cost versus benefit.
And asking someone to invest heavily in order to reap benefits in the far
future (only to sacrifice your pleasure today) is just stupid. You could
be spending that time achieving useful things, and not end up in some
depressive or near or somewhat semi-depressive mood because you left the
flow of having fun, and you are now studying boring stuff that you don't
really need now.
> The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
The basic problem is that even Vim's help system is not user friendly.
> (Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
> accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
> Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
> headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
> seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
> don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
> "what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
> it's years before I need it again.)
That is basically the entire proof I need for knowing that this is indeed
for you as well, a difficult program to use. What on earth would require
29 pages of personal notes just to use an editor (no matter how powerful)
unless that editor required heavy investment just to be able to use it???
Suppose you lost that file. What then???
The only time I kept help notes was back when I was like 12 and I was
making printouts of ASCII tables and the like, because there was yet no
internet. Today I only print tech web pages mostly. I keep them around for
easy reference. I am wanting though to find or create for myself a better
notekeeping system, I had been using the lousy self-contained
javascript-wiki called TiddlyWiki.
My attempts were at DokuWiki. I have installed DokuWiki on my home little
server thing. Except that the programmers have decided sometime in the
recent past, apparently, to move all of the configuration at startup into
one big clump, that will execute on every instantiation, even when 80% is
not necessary. And since its primary web page accesses that site about 3
times (for stylesheets as well, and even some tracking image --- imagine
that, a site that uses a tracker image to track its own requests ---
idiocy!!). Since the little file/web server is way slow, those requests
each took up perhaps a second each. Because even though PHP has this
binary cache engine (APC opcode cache) that doesn't mean the environment
is kept between requests (since it is stateless HTTP). So you have
*STUPID* requests for pages or images (even the code necessary to
determine whether to send a "cached" or "not changed" response required
the entire environment to load each time) that each take up like a second,
which means every page load takes up about 3 seconds to be processed by
the server.
Anyway, I went about hacking that environment loader and within a few
hours I had the requests down to about 400ms for the stylesheet and so on.
Without losing anything. Whatever. Haven't been able to continue with it
yet. Still sitting there on server. I may have had it down to 80ms even
for the cache responses, not sure anymore.
It creates a cache or "parsed" version of new stylesheets (when
configuration is changed, they are regenerated) so you could simply load
the entire environment when this regen was called for, but it could be
delayed so as to be faster with the http cacher.
Okay.
>> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
>> possible :p.
>
> Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
> a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
Everything is self-created, but it is created out of a desire or perceived
need to use a certain thing or tool at a certain time or moment or place
or location. When you would be better off abandoning the tool, instead of
forcing it through.
And the frustration results from a mis-appreciation of what is required in
that moment. In your exhaustion or tiredness you may try to get something
working with a form of stubborn persistence when you would be better off
choosing to do something else. And out of this the frustration comes. Of
course it is self-created. But it is self-created out of a desire to GET
THIS THING WORKING, not out of a laziness to learn.
Because there is no need to learn the fucking thing when you have no need
to do that.
Or to even use that.
Like I said: learning something if you have a real good reason to do a
thing is excellent, learning something if you had better spent your time
elsewhere doing the same thing with less effort is pointless.
Why on earth select a tool that requires more investment when you have
alternatives available that cost less?
The logical, rational and sensible choice is to ditch the expensive tool
(for that moment, or situation, or time) and to use the thing that already
works. Or works with less cost.
> The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
> If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
> are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
>
> a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
> b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
> c) Google for a fix, or
> d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
What if:
- you have no time to look up details of the terminal config
- you don't even have a good terminal at your disposal
- you have no time to fix .vimrc while spending perhaps 2 hours getting
the thing working because of your failing mental state
- fixing a thing that requires more time to fix it (and then do it) than
it does to work with the limitations is not a good spending of time,
unless you have the intent to let it be an asset for the future. But if
the limiting condition may well be gone within a week, such a thing would
not apply, as you would be investing time in a solution that you can throw
a way a few steps down the road.
- posting a message may also be too difficult or require more time than
you have, seeing as that probably you want to do that thing now.
Which again falls in the category of investment that you can not use now,
or even something that would be easier solved with the other methods
anyway.
>
> Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
> that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
> therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
> configurations might help.
People have no need to deal with hard-to-use tools when they have better
things to do with their time. The tool is there for the user (it is a
servant) not the other way around. There is no requirement whatsoever in
life to keep up or be able to use a specific tool just for the sake of
being able to use it.
So, simply put: nobody should be asked to do senseless things just so they
can keep using Vim, when using Vim is not a real requirement for anyone.
Like someone said, there are perhaps plenty of alternatives. But it all
boils down to cost-benefit.
And sometimes, indeed, there is a gain in spending time with complaining
when it is obvious that even though Vim may be perhaps lacking in certain
important areas, there still might not be any tool that comes close to it,
regardless.
And in that case investing effort in either improving the tool, or
complaining to people that might improve it, or to break a mindset that
the tool doesn't need improvement whatsoever, because the user is always
to blame and never the tool, well.... perhaps then complaining is also a
form of investment, instead of using a difficult help system it might be
useful to complain about the difficulty of using it ;-)..
(More about that in the other mail, I guess.... :( ).
> In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
>
> set showmode
>
> I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
>
> " Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
> if &term =~ "xterm"
> let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
> let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
> endif
Such things are at the behest of the developer or maintainer or
configurator. It should not be asked of every idividual user to improve
the basic default user friendliness of an application.
Like I would argue in the other email:
An hour spent by a developer is worth a million hours spent by users.
Because even 10 minutes of work might save your users a billion minutes
when all combined and accumulated.
That is just my mindset as a programmer. I don't want to be buried by
support requests that I could have prevented, you see. Or frustrated
users, that would complain about stuff I should have done for them,
instead of asking them to do my work.
It is a macro versus micro thing. If you do the macro right, the micro
disappears. If you fail at the macro, the micro will get the most of you
and bury you in endless demands from users.
> If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
> defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
> advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
> competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
Sorry, not necessary. My competence is not at stake. There is just no true
need to 'fight a battle you cannot win." In the sense that if you seek out
the challenges that fit you, you will always be "enough" and there is then
also not a need to condescend on a user's "competence" level.
And my only 'fault' is to keep trying to achieve something with Vim when
it is too difficult.
Which is not something you can really blame a person for, it is quite
ordinary human behaviour to persist with something in a stubbornness
out of a tiredness or a depression. Which then causes a lot of frustration
when the tool consequently requires an attentive, waking mindset that can
concentrate always.
Like a television that will only turn on if you can instantly recollect or
memorize or take from your memory a 30 character password.
Not a very useful television.
Like I said, if Vim is only useful when I am at my best, then perhaps
(depending on circumstances) 80% of the time it is ready for the
disposable trash department.
Quite simply honestly and clearly put.
Again, it is not like there is anything that can replace it. I never liked
Emacs one bit, Pico and Nano are worthless really for anything other than
writing emails (that is just my take on it really, or my perception)
there was also a thing called Joe (Joe's Own Editor) which I guess was
nice for a time and I might return to it some time.
So what I was saying is: we are not here for the tool, the tool is here
for us. (It is a basic misconception about the role of the feminine and
the masculine, btw. You see it everywhere: servants (or people providing
services) pretending or acting like the client is there for them (needing
to fulfill requirements and whatnot, not being allowed to make their own
choices, the supplier wants to have his way out of some ego desire, it has
to be done in a certain way for the servant instead of the servant being
there for the master. In the sense that the service provider will start to
bolt if something is not to his/her liking. You ask a table, the creator
insists on creating 3 prototypes when you are fine with just one. You ask
a curtain, the seller insists that it doesn't look well in your home and
won't sell it to you or refuses to help you find something you like
yourself. You ask something to have your coat repaired, they insist you
are better off letting that person himself handle it. In the sense that
you ask the person to bring the coat to a repair shop, but that person
wants to take home the credit himself for repairing it. And so on.
Depending on the subculture or quality level (expensiveness, sometimes) of
what you are dealing with, people may be more or less willing to just
fulfill simple wishes.
The more exclusive, so to speak, service providers are often geared or
focussed on creating happy customer and really listening to his or her
wishes. The more cheap ones often have no patience, no desire, no time, no
room, no space, to listen to anything that deviates from what they think
should be done.
Of course it all boils down to how well you are feeling.
But in Open Source Software it is not an uncommon thing for the feeling to
exist that the users are there for the tool (think of all the Linux
fanboyism on certain forums or blogsites) and the tool becomes a kind of
sacred icon or emblem, a religion.
And Vim.... well it is a bit of a religion for some people some times, I
guess..
Again, the tool is there for the user.
And If I am Complaining Here with a sense of Moaning..... or frustration.
It is just because I have never really voiced these things before ever to
anyone who could listen (because I know virtually nobody who uses these
systems, etcetera). Even if I started using Vim back in perhaps 1998??
Or a few years before, but obviously I had not much to go for it without
internet access. Say I started really using it on a debian server in my
student home in the year 2000.
I haven't ever really used another editor on (remote) servers.
Nor have I ever heard anyone talk of another editor (or mention it) (or me
reading about it) (or reading about someone mentioning it) that gave the
impression of something else actually being worthwhile.
And hence I have had years and years of being frustrated and not anyone to
talk to it about, or about it. My apologies if that seems like unfair or
anything, but still it is a good opportunity to get it out and also convey
the sentiment that yes.
Vim is not user friendly. Not the slightest.
Or indeed, more positively described:
Vim is user unfriendly. :p.
And the help system itself is your enemy, not your friend. I will relate
in the other email, if still allowed here ;-) :-/.
Bye.
> Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
> the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
> like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
Hey I like this quote!!!
I am dealing with a woman victim. But she has been victimized mostly by
other men. In the sense that people usually talk people (women) into
feeling more and more of a victim, or being more and more victimized, when
this woman's initial experience or perception was not so at all.
People called "caretakers" or "in positions of authority" (in dutch there
is a single word for it : voogden. Parents are types of voogd. But in a
real sense, government, police, mental health care, child protective
services, victim protection/treatment services, and so on, and so on, and
so on, also fulfill those roles. They try to take away self-determination
and self-respect and self-confidence, because a weaker person is easier
controlled. )) - and a person that you can control, is a person that you
can "help". But this requires often the person to either feel like a
victim, or like a villain. And in the context of women versus men, it is
pretty clear which is which.
There is a story from the USA from some 10 years ago in which a prank
caller that acted like police got young female employees of McDonald's and
the like to undress with nothing more than vague allegations and threats.
This particular caller (he had done it like 40 times before getting
caught) walked away free. He got a female manager to undress the 18-year
old girl. The female manager walked away with about 400k or 500k in USD
worth of damages. The female manager then handed the girl to her fiancee
who was ordered by the caller to have the girl suck his cock. The guy was
like drawn into a situation in which he was completely confounded and lost
and he had first been ordered to spank the girl, which was quite a
pleasurable experience to watch, I must say. (It was all recorded on
safety cam). (And like broadcasted in near full view). But after that the
caller told the guy to ask the girl to suck him. The girl willfully
obeyed, or moreover, or more likely, already was feeling this victim
identity beginning to serve her, and she wilfully complied.
The girl walked away with about 1.2 million US dollars in damages from
McDonalds.
For one little blowjob.
Quite a good hooker, I must say. Most don't earn that much that fast. ;-).
Serious here!!!!
The guy walked away with 5 years in jail.
The poor sucker who got sucked into a situation not of this own devising,
and who was asked by the woman who basically controlled him in the
relationship he was in (as women usually do and they have the upper hand
in ordinary customary relationships in our cultures) and who got one lousy
blowjob as a "reward" that he didn't even really want (or not at all).....
got punished.
But the point and moral of the story is.
The female manager who played the largest role in this girl's humilation
as she actively sought to suck the guy for rewards (her mind was probably
already aware of probable results) was not punished at all but ALSO
received a very large sum in damages from her employer.
Bah! Bye! Good riddance of my lousy job!
What is your take on that? The girl acts on television like she loved her
job. But we all know working for a McDonalds is like being a modern day
slave and it can cost you your health and everything for minimum wage. A
friend of mine (or former friend) saw his physical health get drained as
he was working so much just to pay his rent in the city of London, that he
didn't even have money to pay the bus or buy a bike. The wages were so
bad, that he had to walk for perhaps an hour and a half, or even longer,
to get to his work. And back. And then perhaps 6 hours of sleep. And go
on.
The girl was able to quit the job she hated and get a large sum of money
for a simple act of cooperation that in this culture is regarded as the
greatest of all sins, almost, or in any case something extremely extremely
extremely extremely terrible. Which it is not. When it is not. It is a
blowjob. Nothing more.
People are put in deep victim mode around sex all the time, which causes
the experience to grow in guilt over time. The experience itself was not
even all that bad, but when people habitually keep talking to you as if
the worst thing ever happened to you, it quickly becomes in your mind the
worst of the worst.
But the most important aspect of it is that victim and villain are
separated and contrasted so much, and the possible punishment of the
villain only cements this in the mind of the 'victim', that the victim can
never let go of the experience or the guilt around it or surrounding it,
or as perhaps part of it (not really the case, guilt is something created
in the past or the future, or about the past or about the future) -- and
the end result is that the victim is ever plagued by recurring nightmares
because everyone has been telling her for years quite incessantly how
terrible an experience it has been, that she has forgotten the reality of
it and cannot even longer remember how she felt back then or before it had
happened.
And even feels guilty about enjoying thoughts or fantasies about it.
How it could also have played out in a more ...interesting or pleasurable
way.
(JUST MY TAKE ON THINGS).
It Dutch they say "turning a mosquito into an elephant". They also say "a
storm in a glass of water".
So just saying: victimhood is not the property of women. It is the
property of this culture. The McDonald's girl was acutely aware of
possible results because of deep experience in this culture's sphere. She
would have always KNOWN that everyone would feel sorry for her and treat
her in special ways and the rewards this could reap for her.
In the end of the show the commentator asked
"Do you think you will ever be able to put this in the past?"
And the girl replies
"I don't think I ever will" with dollar signs in her eyes, because
cooperating with the show is of course also part of maintaining or
creating the impression that she is a really sorry person in need of
compensation.
But if she can never get over it, it is because of the money she received
for something self-humiliating, or call it "whoring", and she has turned
her own humiliation into an asset. As well as the poor guy going to jail
for something he didn't really do (she did it).
Guilt complex we call this. The poor girl is going to feel guilty about
what happened to the guy she sucked.
Pangs of guilt we call it ;-).
And then people tell her "don't think about it, he got what he deserved".
And she doesn't really feel the same. Not anymore, if ever.
And often thinks whether basing her life on such a ..greedy.... for no
other word... damages claim was really such a great idea.
For no other reason that she has made herself into a public whore.
And even a movie being made about it that is nothing other than
entertainment.
It is called "Compliance" (2012). They call it a docu-drama or perhaps a
thriller, but it is just entertainment, nothing really meaningful or
anything. Haven't seen it yet though, I might download it in a few.
So now her story of victimhood is just a means for other people to make
money as well.
========================
Anyway, I may have acted like a victim (as well) (as a guy) and I have
certainly received suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. And I might be
doing that now -- acting like a victim.
But you just go on trying to transform the deeper issue in your mind (or
neck-muscles, perhaps) that caused the experience and you really have no
time for second thoughts, or to doubt yourself constantly.
You have to keep going the way you know will solve the answer. Why solve
the answer and not the question?
I guess because the questions are usually not all that hard but the
answers that other people have, including yourself, might be way complex
or more complicated. You might be lost in a morass, or in the woods, or
whatever you can call it in English. And other people are also lost: they
seek to constantly complicate things further, and act like there can never
be a solution ever (other than punishment of the guy) and the further they
go (or yourself, perhaps) -- the further those other people go, the more
they do to make an even bigger mess and tangle of that ball of thread.
Because the one thing they fear is reconciliaton of "victim" and "villain"
who just had an experience that they both contributed to and that was
nothing of a problem whatsoever in the mind of a clear person, but to the
minds of those "caretaker" people serious bad shit was happening that
needed to be dealt with.
And the girl itself (in this case, it is what you would indeed call a
girl) was like "this guy is not so bad, I am just dissing him and
threatening him to get him off my back ASAP". And the victimizing people
then go "oh my, the girl doesn't want that thing, CALL THE COPS".
Suddenly a girl's desires turn into Law. Into LAW. A girl's wish is the
command of the lawkeepers. She merely has to mention that she doesn't like
something, and the lawkeepers spring into action to deal with the threat.
Like that princess on the pea. Who can't sleep when the slightest thing is
wrong. And the white knights come into being to protect her against that
pea.
Oh no! The girl cannot sleep! Quickly, arrange a world forum meeting! We
have to deal with this situation!!!
Entitled princess syndrome.
Re: Any poets here?
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Tim Chase wrote:
> Out-of-the-box, most distributions typically come with "vim.tiny" (I
> think Fedora calls it "vim-tiny") symlinked to the name vi/vim. This
> is a minimal build that gives the core vi experience but doesn't have
> all the bells and whistles offered by the "vim", "vim-full",
> "vim-enhanced", "vim-gtk", "vim-gnome", etc. packages.
That would explain.
It would be pretty natural to assume that there would no longer be any (or
many) other versions of "vi" doing the rounds. I heard mention of some
nvi thing here. Makes no sense really to maintain some primitive older
classic version of vi, would there.
Except that when I invoke vim.tiny on this Kubuntu, it does the arrow keys
correctly :p
Debian the same.
So not sure again. My memory sometimes also starts to fail as to what
exactly has been the experiences of a few hours ago ;-).
But there is no other server that I have accessed where the ABCD output
occurred, so logic demands that it was one of these two ;-).
>
> On a fresh install, you can check the output of either
>
> $ vi --version
>
> or within vi, invoke
>
> :version
>
Aye, same output as you. Although I don't have any GUI vim installed.
Never used that, really. No reason to, for me.
--
Xen, (or Bart) ... ;-). Bye.
> Out-of-the-box, most distributions typically come with "vim.tiny" (I
> think Fedora calls it "vim-tiny") symlinked to the name vi/vim. This
> is a minimal build that gives the core vi experience but doesn't have
> all the bells and whistles offered by the "vim", "vim-full",
> "vim-enhanced", "vim-gtk", "vim-gnome", etc. packages.
That would explain.
It would be pretty natural to assume that there would no longer be any (or
many) other versions of "vi" doing the rounds. I heard mention of some
nvi thing here. Makes no sense really to maintain some primitive older
classic version of vi, would there.
Except that when I invoke vim.tiny on this Kubuntu, it does the arrow keys
correctly :p
Debian the same.
So not sure again. My memory sometimes also starts to fail as to what
exactly has been the experiences of a few hours ago ;-).
But there is no other server that I have accessed where the ABCD output
occurred, so logic demands that it was one of these two ;-).
>
> On a fresh install, you can check the output of either
>
> $ vi --version
>
> or within vi, invoke
>
> :version
>
Aye, same output as you. Although I don't have any GUI vim installed.
Never used that, really. No reason to, for me.
--
Xen, (or Bart) ... ;-). Bye.
Re: Any poets here?
On 2015-01-31 20:44, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> Not sure about that, but I also just installed a Debian and
> Kubuntu, and on both I've had to install vim (not vi) manually. It
> is included on the first Debian DVD though (I don't have internet
> on that box as of yet) but I guess basically everything is included
> on that 3-dvd set.
Out-of-the-box, most distributions typically come with "vim.tiny" (I
think Fedora calls it "vim-tiny") symlinked to the name vi/vim. This
is a minimal build that gives the core vi experience but doesn't have
all the bells and whistles offered by the "vim", "vim-full",
"vim-enhanced", "vim-gtk", "vim-gnome", etc. packages.
On a fresh install, you can check the output of either
$ vi --version
or within vi, invoke
:version
to see what options it was built with. When I invoke vim.tiny, it
shows most features as disabled (with a "-" in front of them), and
describes it as "Small version without GUI" whereas my regular vim
reports "Huge version with GTK2 GUI" and has a "+" in front of most
options.
This might make a difference in how arrow keys end up getting
handled, as well as other functionality.
-tim
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> Not sure about that, but I also just installed a Debian and
> Kubuntu, and on both I've had to install vim (not vi) manually. It
> is included on the first Debian DVD though (I don't have internet
> on that box as of yet) but I guess basically everything is included
> on that 3-dvd set.
Out-of-the-box, most distributions typically come with "vim.tiny" (I
think Fedora calls it "vim-tiny") symlinked to the name vi/vim. This
is a minimal build that gives the core vi experience but doesn't have
all the bells and whistles offered by the "vim", "vim-full",
"vim-enhanced", "vim-gtk", "vim-gnome", etc. packages.
On a fresh install, you can check the output of either
$ vi --version
or within vi, invoke
:version
to see what options it was built with. When I invoke vim.tiny, it
shows most features as disabled (with a "-" in front of them), and
describes it as "Small version without GUI" whereas my regular vim
reports "Huge version with GTK2 GUI" and has a "+" in front of most
options.
This might make a difference in how arrow keys end up getting
handled, as well as other functionality.
-tim
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Re: Any poets here?
I guess that could be.
Vim as a package was installable though on Debian and Kubuntu, about 25
meg. I believe on one of the systems I had tried the "arrow keys in insert
mode" and it would paste the ANSI characters/commands (A, B, C, D) in the
text itself, instead of doing cursor movement. So there you have it. After
vim installation, that behaviour was gone. (for the "vi" command, I never
use "vim").
Regards,
Xen.
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the command
> path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply because vim has
> supplanted obsolete vi:
>
> $ file /etc/alternatives/vi
> /etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
>
> Has that led to some initial confusion? (Or is it called kvim there?)
>
> Erik
> (Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
Vim as a package was installable though on Debian and Kubuntu, about 25
meg. I believe on one of the systems I had tried the "arrow keys in insert
mode" and it would paste the ANSI characters/commands (A, B, C, D) in the
text itself, instead of doing cursor movement. So there you have it. After
vim installation, that behaviour was gone. (for the "vi" command, I never
use "vim").
Regards,
Xen.
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the command
> path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply because vim has
> supplanted obsolete vi:
>
> $ file /etc/alternatives/vi
> /etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
>
> Has that led to some initial confusion? (Or is it called kvim there?)
>
> Erik
> (Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
Re: Any poets here?
Okay, well...
Not sure about that, but I also just installed a Debian and Kubuntu, and
on both I've had to install vim (not vi) manually. It is included on the
first Debian DVD though (I don't have internet on that box as of yet) but
I guess basically everything is included on that 3-dvd set.
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2015-01-30 23:37, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
>> LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
>>
>> Let's check Debian...
>>
>> NEITHER :P.
>
> While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
> certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
> just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
> and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
> one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
> of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
> of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
> it. Along with ed(1) :-D
>
> -tim
>
>
>
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>
Not sure about that, but I also just installed a Debian and Kubuntu, and
on both I've had to install vim (not vi) manually. It is included on the
first Debian DVD though (I don't have internet on that box as of yet) but
I guess basically everything is included on that 3-dvd set.
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2015-01-30 23:37, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
>> LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
>>
>> Let's check Debian...
>>
>> NEITHER :P.
>
> While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
> certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
> just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
> and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
> one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
> of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
> of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
> it. Along with ed(1) :-D
>
> -tim
>
>
>
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Re: Displaying Sigils in Vim on Windows
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 10:35:14 AM UTC-6, Ari wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I setup vim to display special characters for tab, nsbp, and eol. The characters display as expected on Linux, but when I re-use the gvimrc/vimrc files on Windows the characters are misrepresented. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can configure vim to display those special characters on Windows? Thanks.
>
> Best,
> Ari
What are your encoding settings? If I recall, many Linux systems have utf-8 by default, but on Windows it's pretty much always an 8-bit "codepage"?
I.e., 'encoding', 'fileencodings', and 'fileencoding'. 'termencoding' shouldn't matter too much, since I assume you're using gvim on Windows.
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> Hi,
>
> I setup vim to display special characters for tab, nsbp, and eol. The characters display as expected on Linux, but when I re-use the gvimrc/vimrc files on Windows the characters are misrepresented. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can configure vim to display those special characters on Windows? Thanks.
>
> Best,
> Ari
What are your encoding settings? If I recall, many Linux systems have utf-8 by default, but on Windows it's pretty much always an 8-bit "codepage"?
I.e., 'encoding', 'fileencodings', and 'fileencoding'. 'termencoding' shouldn't matter too much, since I assume you're using gvim on Windows.
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Re: Displaying Sigils in Vim on Windows
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:51:35 PM UTC, Christian Brabandt wrote:
> Hi Ari!
>
> On Do, 29 Jan 2015, Ari wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I setup vim to display special characters for tab, nsbp, and eol. The characters display as expected on Linux, but when I re-use the gvimrc/vimrc files on Windows the characters are misrepresented. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can configure vim to display those special characters on Windows? Thanks.
>
> Are you sure, that your font can actually display those chars?
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
> Manche weisen Männer haben den Zorn als eine vorübergehende
> Geistesstörung bezeichnet.
> -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4-65 n.Chr.)
Hi Christian,
I installed ubuntu mono, the font used in the Linux setup, on Windows. So it should be able to display those characters.
Best,
Ari
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> Hi Ari!
>
> On Do, 29 Jan 2015, Ari wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I setup vim to display special characters for tab, nsbp, and eol. The characters display as expected on Linux, but when I re-use the gvimrc/vimrc files on Windows the characters are misrepresented. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can configure vim to display those special characters on Windows? Thanks.
>
> Are you sure, that your font can actually display those chars?
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
> Manche weisen Männer haben den Zorn als eine vorübergehende
> Geistesstörung bezeichnet.
> -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4-65 n.Chr.)
Hi Christian,
I installed ubuntu mono, the font used in the Linux setup, on Windows. So it should be able to display those characters.
Best,
Ari
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Re: Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 30.01.15 21:11, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a
> > piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason.
>
> Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
> the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
> of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
> clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
> the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
> you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
> undo, then:
>
> :h undo
>
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
And set the 'undofile' option. Then the only way to lose changes is
when the file is changed outside of Vim. I rely on Vim being able to
undo changes a lot, especially when debugging.
--
hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
146. You experience ACTUAL physical withdrawal symptoms when away
from your 'puter and the net.
/// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@Moolenaar.net -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
/// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
\\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///
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> On 30.01.15 21:11, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a
> > piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason.
>
> Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
> the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
> of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
> clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
> the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
> you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
> undo, then:
>
> :h undo
>
> and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
And set the 'undofile' option. Then the only way to lose changes is
when the file is changed outside of Vim. I rely on Vim being able to
undo changes a lot, especially when debugging.
--
hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
146. You experience ACTUAL physical withdrawal symptoms when away
from your 'puter and the net.
/// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@Moolenaar.net -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
/// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
\\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///
--
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Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]
On 30.01.15 21:11, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a
> piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason.
Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
undo, then:
:h undo
and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
On 30.01.15 22:59, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
> favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a certain
> thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
(Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
"what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
it's years before I need it again.)
> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
> possible :p.
Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing compared
> to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what they should, I
> don't have to remember HJKL keys
The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
c) Google for a fix, or
d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
configurations might help.
In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
set showmode
I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
" Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
if &term =~ "xterm"
let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
endif
and if muscle memory prefers:
" These days I expect to be out of insert mode, after a line change:
inoremap <Up> ^[<Up>
inoremap <Down> ^[<Down>
If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
All the best,
Erik
(Who uses only vim - every day - and cannot remember losing any text
during an edit session, at least not in the last twenty years. (Some of
that might have been vi, where the risk of losing a paragraph was greater.))
--
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the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
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> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a
> piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason.
Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
undo, then:
:h undo
and _practice_! ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")
On 30.01.15 22:59, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
> favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a certain
> thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)
(Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
"what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
it's years before I need it again.)
> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
> possible :p.
Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:
> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing compared
> to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what they should, I
> don't have to remember HJKL keys
The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:
a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
c) Google for a fix, or
d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.
Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
configurations might help.
In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:
set showmode
I change the cursor colour in insert mode:
" Cursor Appearance: (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
if &term =~ "xterm"
let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
endif
and if muscle memory prefers:
" These days I expect to be out of insert mode, after a line change:
inoremap <Up> ^[<Up>
inoremap <Down> ^[<Down>
If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)
All the best,
Erik
(Who uses only vim - every day - and cannot remember losing any text
during an edit session, at least not in the last twenty years. (Some of
that might have been vi, where the risk of losing a paragraph was greater.))
--
Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J
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Re: Any poets here?
> On Jan 30, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Eric Weir <eeweir@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 30, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Eric Weir <eeweir@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> QuickCursor used let me use vim as my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.
>
> It seems my wish has been granted. Whoopee! (Hope it works. Comments suggest it does.) Not free, though. <http://blog.hogbaysoftware.com/post/2623776146/quickcursor-now-available-in-mac-app-store>
Wrong! That link references the version of QuickCursor that has been discontinued. I was thrown of by the date on the link to this page in Google. And the description at this link sounds like the problem created by Apple's sandboxing of apps had been overcome. Alas, not so.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eeweir@bellsouth.net
"...we are a form of invitation to others and to otherness..."
- David Whyte
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>
>> On Jan 30, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Eric Weir <eeweir@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> QuickCursor used let me use vim as my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.
>
> It seems my wish has been granted. Whoopee! (Hope it works. Comments suggest it does.) Not free, though. <http://blog.hogbaysoftware.com/post/2623776146/quickcursor-now-available-in-mac-app-store>
Wrong! That link references the version of QuickCursor that has been discontinued. I was thrown of by the date on the link to this page in Google. And the description at this link sounds like the problem created by Apple's sandboxing of apps had been overcome. Alas, not so.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eeweir@bellsouth.net
"...we are a form of invitation to others and to otherness..."
- David Whyte
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Re: Any poets here?
On 2015-01-31 21:41, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the
> command path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply
> because vim has supplanted obsolete vi:
>
> $ file /etc/alternatives/vi
> /etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
>
> Has that led to some initial confusion?
perhaps. I type "vi" everywhere, sometimes I get vim, sometimes I get
nvi, but it's always there (except in some odd non-POSIX spins where
they truly give a stripped down system and you have to add
EVERYTHING). And on Debian/Ubuntu/RH/Slack, when I type "vi", the
splash screen says "vim" :-)
> (Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
You and me both. :-/
-tim
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> What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the
> command path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply
> because vim has supplanted obsolete vi:
>
> $ file /etc/alternatives/vi
> /etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
>
> Has that led to some initial confusion?
perhaps. I type "vi" everywhere, sometimes I get vim, sometimes I get
nvi, but it's always there (except in some odd non-POSIX spins where
they truly give a stripped down system and you have to add
EVERYTHING). And on Debian/Ubuntu/RH/Slack, when I type "vi", the
splash screen says "vim" :-)
> (Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
You and me both. :-/
-tim
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Re: Any poets here?
On 30.01.15 21:18, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2015-01-30 23:37, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> > LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
> >
> > Let's check Debian...
> >
> > NEITHER :P.
>
> While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
> certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
> just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
> and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
> one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
> of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
> of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
> it. Along with ed(1) :-D
What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the command
path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply because vim has
supplanted obsolete vi:
$ file /etc/alternatives/vi
/etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
Has that led to some initial confusion? (Or is it called kvim there?)
Erik
(Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
--
As the World Bank has told us, the current insufficiency of action to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions has the world barrelling towards at least four degrees
of global warming by the end of this century, and a set of spiralling impacts
that would fundamentally reshape the planet as we know it.
- http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-30/de-brum-climate-change-marshall-islands/4852760
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> On 2015-01-30 23:37, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> > LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
> >
> > Let's check Debian...
> >
> > NEITHER :P.
>
> While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
> certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
> just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
> and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
> one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
> of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
> of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
> it. Along with ed(1) :-D
What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the command
path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply because vim has
supplanted obsolete vi:
$ file /etc/alternatives/vi
/etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
Has that led to some initial confusion? (Or is it called kvim there?)
Erik
(Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)
--
As the World Bank has told us, the current insufficiency of action to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions has the world barrelling towards at least four degrees
of global warming by the end of this century, and a set of spiralling impacts
that would fundamentally reshape the planet as we know it.
- http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-30/de-brum-climate-change-marshall-islands/4852760
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Friday, January 30, 2015
How to set cursor position after jump to a tag?
By default, the cursor is placed in the middle of the window after jump to a tag definition,
but more often than not, a function's code is longer than half the window's height, so I have to
press 'z<CR>' after every '<C-]>' to see more code.
Is there a way to set cursor position after jump to a tag?
I use ':tjump' so there will be a window when there are more than one match, so a simply
':nnoremap <C-]> <C-]>z<CR>' don't work.
thanks.
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Re: vim - :promptfind + :promptrepl
* Tim Chase <vim@tim.thechases.com> [2015-01-31 04:38]:
> On 2015-01-31 02:45, Sven Guckes wrote:
> > you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> > reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
> > the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> > one is that it should work on terminals as well.
> Not only could you add these dialogs
> to vim, they already exist there ;-)
> :help :promptfind
> :help :promptrepl
i had feared that.
$ vim
:promptrepl
E319: Sorry, the command is not available in this version
whew.
oh my.. my system does have a gvim - who knew?
so here is how this dialog looks like:
http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim_promptfind.png
http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim.promptrepl.ed.vim.png
so.. use tab and shift-tab to move around, use the space
bar and arrows left/right to toggle those radio buttons,
and then use alt-tab to switch between gvim and the
dialog box (and everything else on that desktop).
now, those key commands are all *really* intuitive
and do not require any instructions because we
had all been born with that knowledge, right??
nipples and all.. (see sig)
come to think of it.. are these keys
described anywhere in the vim docs?
hmm.. when have i ever used "gvim" at all?
way back when i needed a "vi" on the Mac..
then vim-3 was ported to Mac.. i was happy.
but vim-4 was not proted to the Mac.. unhappy.
i was still waiting for Apple Unix to converge
with its interface.. but Mac OS X definitely came
too late. i had migrated to linux way before.
and i still think that porting it to Windows
was giving away a huge reason to switch.
meanwhile i am probably happy that vim
exists for windows. do we really want
to them to call unix services? right.
> Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd
> suspect that a person having trouble with vim may
> also display a disinclination to use the command
> prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.
gui people probably use something more graphical, anyway.
i find it very amusing that some people won't remember
to search with ignore-case using "/foo/i" - but they
sure know that the command can be found going to the
top menu, left hand side, some menu starting with 'f',
third or fourth submenu down to "find..." and then
in a subsubmenu they will find that extra "hidden"
command with the dialog: "find with ignorecase.." o_O
of course you can force yourself to learn
non-gui commands by turning all menus OFF:
:unmenu! *
(i actually had to look for that command
in the help files as i had never used it)
when i teach (workshops etc) then one of the
first things i do is pull the plug on the mice.
some folks then are completely lost. *sigh*
> >> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
> > it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> > that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
> And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all
> manner of functionality so you didn't have to remember it.
> Oh. Wait. It does that too. :-)
of course! :)
> >> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> >> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> >> and wish I had a regular editor.
> > a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
> > compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
> Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about
> ed(1), the standard editor[1]. Copying text between
> files using ed(1) is far more challenging.
talk about a 42K program not having IDE support. :-P
> As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into
> which you can stash text, and paste that content into
> any additional file you have. Moving text around in vim
> is actually far easier than in any other editor I've used.
some find out earlier than others. and some die before
learning that there already had been a solution. how sad.
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
heh!
Sven
--
"Ed, man! !man ed"
"Ed is the standard text editor."
http://www.guckes.net/ed/ed.png
http://www.guckes.net/talks/ed_the_standard_editor.txt
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html
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> On 2015-01-31 02:45, Sven Guckes wrote:
> > you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> > reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
> > the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> > one is that it should work on terminals as well.
> Not only could you add these dialogs
> to vim, they already exist there ;-)
> :help :promptfind
> :help :promptrepl
i had feared that.
$ vim
:promptrepl
E319: Sorry, the command is not available in this version
whew.
oh my.. my system does have a gvim - who knew?
so here is how this dialog looks like:
http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim_promptfind.png
http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim.promptrepl.ed.vim.png
so.. use tab and shift-tab to move around, use the space
bar and arrows left/right to toggle those radio buttons,
and then use alt-tab to switch between gvim and the
dialog box (and everything else on that desktop).
now, those key commands are all *really* intuitive
and do not require any instructions because we
had all been born with that knowledge, right??
nipples and all.. (see sig)
come to think of it.. are these keys
described anywhere in the vim docs?
hmm.. when have i ever used "gvim" at all?
way back when i needed a "vi" on the Mac..
then vim-3 was ported to Mac.. i was happy.
but vim-4 was not proted to the Mac.. unhappy.
i was still waiting for Apple Unix to converge
with its interface.. but Mac OS X definitely came
too late. i had migrated to linux way before.
and i still think that porting it to Windows
was giving away a huge reason to switch.
meanwhile i am probably happy that vim
exists for windows. do we really want
to them to call unix services? right.
> Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd
> suspect that a person having trouble with vim may
> also display a disinclination to use the command
> prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.
gui people probably use something more graphical, anyway.
i find it very amusing that some people won't remember
to search with ignore-case using "/foo/i" - but they
sure know that the command can be found going to the
top menu, left hand side, some menu starting with 'f',
third or fourth submenu down to "find..." and then
in a subsubmenu they will find that extra "hidden"
command with the dialog: "find with ignorecase.." o_O
of course you can force yourself to learn
non-gui commands by turning all menus OFF:
:unmenu! *
(i actually had to look for that command
in the help files as i had never used it)
when i teach (workshops etc) then one of the
first things i do is pull the plug on the mice.
some folks then are completely lost. *sigh*
> >> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
> > it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> > that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
> And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all
> manner of functionality so you didn't have to remember it.
> Oh. Wait. It does that too. :-)
of course! :)
> >> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> >> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> >> and wish I had a regular editor.
> > a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
> > compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
> Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about
> ed(1), the standard editor[1]. Copying text between
> files using ed(1) is far more challenging.
talk about a 42K program not having IDE support. :-P
> As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into
> which you can stash text, and paste that content into
> any additional file you have. Moving text around in vim
> is actually far easier than in any other editor I've used.
some find out earlier than others. and some die before
learning that there already had been a solution. how sad.
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
heh!
Sven
--
"Ed, man! !man ed"
"Ed is the standard text editor."
http://www.guckes.net/ed/ed.png
http://www.guckes.net/talks/ed_the_standard_editor.txt
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html
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Re: Any poets here?
On 2015-01-30 23:37, kouzennoki@gmail.com wrote:
> LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
>
> Let's check Debian...
>
> NEITHER :P.
While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
it. Along with ed(1) :-D
-tim
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> LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
>
> Let's check Debian...
>
> NEITHER :P.
While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
it. Along with ed(1) :-D
-tim
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Re: vim too complicated? or too powerful?
On 2015-01-31 02:45, Sven Guckes wrote:
> you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
> the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> one is that it should work on terminals as well.
Not only could you add these dialogs to vim, they already exist
there ;-)
:help :promptfind
:help :promptrepl
Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd suspect that a person
having trouble with vim may also display a disinclination to use the
command prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.
>> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
>
> it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all manner of
functionality so you didn't have to remember it. Oh. Wait. It
does that too. :-)
>> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
>> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
>> and wish I had a regular editor.
>
> a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
> compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about ed(1), the standard
editor[1]. Copying text between files using ed(1) is far more
challenging.
As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into which you can
stash text, and paste that content into any additional file you have.
Moving text around in vim is actually far easier than in any other
editor I've used.
-tim
[1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
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> you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
> the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> one is that it should work on terminals as well.
Not only could you add these dialogs to vim, they already exist
there ;-)
:help :promptfind
:help :promptrepl
Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd suspect that a person
having trouble with vim may also display a disinclination to use the
command prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.
>> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
>
> it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all manner of
functionality so you didn't have to remember it. Oh. Wait. It
does that too. :-)
>> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
>> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
>> and wish I had a regular editor.
>
> a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
> compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about ed(1), the standard
editor[1]. Copying text between files using ed(1) is far more
challenging.
As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into which you can
stash text, and paste that content into any additional file you have.
Moving text around in vim is actually far easier than in any other
editor I've used.
-tim
[1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
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Re: Any poets here?
* Tim Chase <vim@tim.thechases.com> [2015-01-30 23:23]:
> On 2015-01-30 14:57, Eric Weir wrote:
> > Wondering if there are any poets here
> > who use vim in writing poetry..
> While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
> I find that for prose it can do the trick.
> And poems that rhyme?
> You'll find that this time,
> I used it to author a limerick.
>
> As for plugins, I have to disclose,
> I don't use them for poems or prose.
> But for my writing projects
> Parens and text-objects
> Are the first things to learn, I propose.
nailed it! :-)
about writing/presenting poems
i had some formatting in mind,
such as this one:
:center 50
While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
I find that for prose it can do the trick.
And poems that rhyme?
You'll find that this time,
I used it to author a limerick.
As for plugins, I have to disclose,
I don't use them for poems or prose.
But for my writing projects
Parens and text-objects
Are the first things to learn, I propose.
:-)
Sven
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> On 2015-01-30 14:57, Eric Weir wrote:
> > Wondering if there are any poets here
> > who use vim in writing poetry..
> While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
> I find that for prose it can do the trick.
> And poems that rhyme?
> You'll find that this time,
> I used it to author a limerick.
>
> As for plugins, I have to disclose,
> I don't use them for poems or prose.
> But for my writing projects
> Parens and text-objects
> Are the first things to learn, I propose.
nailed it! :-)
about writing/presenting poems
i had some formatting in mind,
such as this one:
:center 50
While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
I find that for prose it can do the trick.
And poems that rhyme?
You'll find that this time,
I used it to author a limerick.
As for plugins, I have to disclose,
I don't use them for poems or prose.
But for my writing projects
Parens and text-objects
Are the first things to learn, I propose.
:-)
Sven
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Re: vim too complicated? or too powerful?
* <kouzennoki@gmail.com> [2015-01-31 00:24]:
> It is funny to see that the person responding to my 'empty'
> recommendations also does not provide anything meaningful, in that
> sense, but merely questions my experiences and opinions ;-).
well.. that's what happens when you follow someone who does it that way.
yes, you succeeded in side-tracking me. congratulations!
but at least you should have updated the subject accordingly.
so i did now.
> Also, I do not think that personal experiences require
> "evidence" unless I would want to pose it as a universal
> truth or anything, which I don't have any desire to do.
well.. i'm glad to help with a particular problem.
but i think the problem is yourself. blaming effects to
happen when you mistype is hardly a problem of the program.
it is unfortunate that many programs do not have an undo.
but vim does have a thousand undos by default. it also
offfers a redo command. you can go several ways with this
in an undo tree - and it is persistent to editing sessions.
the only thing you are missing here is how to use it.
there is documentation galore. you just need to learn it.
> But to the questions. It is pretty obvious that in any regular
> editor, search and replace (of text, or even patterns,
> sometimes) is a very simple task to perform. You go to a
> visible menu, select a visible option, fill in a few visible
> field with visible options.... and in Vim you have to remember
> to do :s/text/text/ig or something like that. Or is it
> %s/text/text/ig ?. I don't remember. Now. I like Vim's visual
> mode but I don't know much else that is that easy. It is a bit
> like Linux's "info" system, but Vim is easier than that :p.
by "regular" you mean "the way i am used to", right?
so you want an interface to pop up with different text
areas for the search string and the replacement string?
and a button for "ignore case" and "ask me every time"?
how to navigate around this in an environment with mice?
TAB and shift-TAB perhaps? all these things within GUIs?
how about an interface where all these things
can be down with exactly *one* keystroke?
answer: the command line. just put the search
and replacement string right behind each other.
only requires separation with slashes. done.
just put the lines to operate on before it.
"1,23" or "23,42" or "42,$" ('$' = last line).
the '%' is the abbreviation for "all lines".
otherwise it simply operates on the current line.
these are *concepts* - and you will find that
other programs are also using it. coincidence?
anyway - you need to remember this.
as with *everything* you do, right?
if you however do not WANT to remember this and
you think popup dialogs are the way to go, well,
it is right there with every other program, right?
you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
one is that it should work on terminals as well.
> The whole idea of making a lot of key press mistakes is because
> the environment allows you to really quickly do various tasks.
> So it is not a contradiction: the mistakes result from being a
> fast typer and Vim does not put any hinderness or obstruction in
> the way of working really fast. So obviously in that context if
> you press a lot of mode switches you regularly enter a text
> input when you are accidentily in a command mode.
bzzt!
you keep talking about mistakes.
but who makes them? you do!
vim indeed has not been designed for you
to mistype and still get the same results.
if you are asking for that then you may as
well go trolling with this everywhere else.
vim has just two modes really:
in one it works - and in the
other you are simply mistyping.
> Which then does things you do not want and you don't even know
> what commands you just executed, just that you need (sometimes)
> a way to undo it again. Undo is your friend, but sometimes it is
> the only thing that keeps you floating ;-). There is a
> difference ;-).
> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
> I still don't know how to copy text from one file
> to another except by doing :e or :f filename which
> always replaces the current file, I believe.
this is not a matter of belief.
you can switch buffers with *surprise* "buffer" command - ":b"
> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> and wish I had a regular editor.
a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
> and normally I (still!!!) use various different
> (Putty, e.g.) terminals to copy the text
> using the regular desktop I am working in.
so you are using an external program to copy+paste? why?
because you do not know how to use all those
nifty commands for copy+paste built in already?
come on.. you keep showing your ignorance here.
you need to unplug that mouse for a week or so.
there are plenty of commands you copy+paste text.
> And then when finally I was working in like jEdit
> again, I was heaving so many sighs of relief ;-).
well.. use jEdit then?!
> But I regularly do PHP editing in Vim. I have never saw fit to integrate any
> thing outside into it (compilers, other..) so my workflow is pretty bad, but
> it is enough when you can just reload a webpage from your home computer ;-).
> It definitely beats having to reupload changed files every time.
read up on ":help quickfix"..
> But I seriously sometimes would download a file, using whatever difficult
> means because a PHP file is not easily downloaded when it is executed, then
> change it (copy paste stuff) locally, and then find a way to scp it back.
> All very tedious and arduous, but it was a better spending of
> time for me than learning the Vim way at those points or moments.
so the other programs you use make this easier? how so?
> And that is just the way it has been for me.
until you find out and use something like sshfs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSHFS
or maybe www.emacswiki.org/TrampMode
> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is
> not exactly my favourite pastime, eventually especially
> when you forget how to do a certain thing again because
> it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
yeah.. reading up on how to do things more
efficiently doesnt seem to be your thing.
but that makes *everything* in your hands look bad.
until one realizes that *you* are the problem here.
> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly
> relaxing compared to having to do such a thing in Vi.
> Arrow keys always do what they should, I don't have to
> remember HJKL keys if the arrow keys don't work for some
> reason as well as being bugged by which of the BWE keys I
> need this time (I make so many 'mistakes' in that).
yes, i do agree here: the strength of this editor
is that it displays some commands always on screen.
that why i gave pico to beginners first. easy start!
and i also supported it to be rewritten as nano
which separated it from the pine mailer/newsreader,
gave it a free license and a lot more commands, too.
however.. even nano doesnt have a
concept of number prefix to repeat things.
it does not have the dot operator
to repeat the last change command.
it does not have filtering and..
a lot more. that's why i use vim.
to give an example, i wrote it down:
http://www.guckes.net/pico/vs.vi.html
vim has way too many commands to display -
and its strength is in the *concept* of
combining commands (such as 23yy and 42dd)
which simply cannot be easily shown on screen.
think of the "vi mug" - even this cannot show everything.
a "vim mug" to show all commands would probably
be the size of a bath tub or even a pool. (i know..
i have written a few command summaries myself.)
> The things that work fast in Vim are the easy things: dd p
> But in a different editor you would shift-down-arrow,
> ctrl-x, down-arrow, ctrl-v. More arduous, but easy.
..and deleting 42 lines is simply "42dd".
how do you do this is another editor
without counting in your head or
looking at the lines numbers?
my point: the prefix number for commands is a very
poweful concept. alas, nano/pico dont have that.
> And something you do automatically.
... once you have learned it.
this is not a feature of the program -
this is a feature of your *brain*.
> I would say the power of Vim's command is also its
> downfall or its nemesis. Because of being able to
> do impressive things with short commands you are
> enticed or induced to do these things very fast.
> This means you get into a higher mode of
> concentration and ..speed. Even exiting the thing
> is the quickest thing ever with a quick :wq
.. or just ZZ.
would you rather opt for more? or something else?
you can certainly have that if you want. just map it!
> Regular editors are not so easily closed
> and reopened, especially on a desktop.
> It makes no sense to do that on a desktop.
huh? your statement doesnt make sense.
> So on a desktop you often have to save the file,
> alt-tab to the right window where your shell is
> (commandline) which is sometimes hard to find, etcetera.
a shell/terminal is hard to find
when you are using a given environment
where the authors agreed to hide it.
a terminal can be opened on quite a few systems with
a shortcut (ctrl-alt-t is a frequent example) - or
with whatever shortcut *you* want. just make it so!
i mean, if you really this often then you
simply make it accessible easily, dont you?
> Unless and until you the start integrating everything into
> the editor or IDE itself, which then becomes a bliss, but
> it still lacks the power of a real editor like Vi. Because
> then you are bound and chained to that particular IDE.
you are not chained to do anything.
you are just limitd to your abilities.
> And it is no longer a component you can build into a wider
> solution where you are free to choose the components you want.
yes, you are not free - when you dont know what you can do.
> It is just that I just haven't had the time or need or
> opportunity to invest a lot of time into making Vim my
> default workflow component across a network link. I would
> never use it on a local computer because usually I would
> prefer desktop editors for that. I just like the idea of
> working on e.g. a development server with vi for editing.
wrong again. you didnt take the time. again - your fault.
and you can choose whatever as your environment - and
again this is NOT a built-in problem of vim. it's you.
> I just lack and lacked a good copy-paste mechanism.
"ayy use register 'a' to copy the current line
:b 23 switch to buffer 23
"ap use register 'a' to paste its contents
^W ^W switch to the window below the current one
42"ap paste 42 times the contents of register 'a'
there is a register (read: clipboard) for every letter.
so 26 clipboards altogether. been there for decades now.
and they are retained in the viminfo file - if you wish.
why would you use the system default clipboard instead?
which of your other programs have more than two clipboards?
built-in? in the smallest version? for years? name one!
> I believe I will never learn the Vim way and I don't need to,
> a desktop environment should or would be sufficient I believe.
wait.. you already have something better than vim which
suits you? then why the hell complain about vim at all?
just use it - and tell us about it. what is better?
and please explain *why*. give some examples!
> But in that case I am seriously looking into thinking
> about having a way to get this information sent over
> the link into my own clipboard, for instance.
"if your only tool is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail."
> Currently I am writing this in KDE (Kubuntu 15.04, their new
> alpha version 2) and it has a reasonably good clipboard tool.
> Perhaps we could in the end devise a way for such a program
> like Vim (and I would not mind programming on it) in
> combination with a shell (likewise) to get a mechanism where
> these copy-pastes are actually processed from the editor into
> the shell, from the shell to the terminal, and from the
> terminal to the receiving client. I mean, why not.
you are not the first person to think up something like this.
and there are a LOT of tools out there which already do this.
have you never tried looking this up?
> I am doing a lot of coding on telnet and ANSI. Perchance
> I will eventually learn of a way, when I have enough knowhow.
"coding *on* telnet" - a telnet program?
or are you using telnet to log in?
(clear text? no encryption? uh-oh.)
> Ideally I would really want to have a pipe like that. You
> could even pipe the text into a unix pipe and the terminal
> itself will read it when configured, or whatever. I don't
> know how (unix) interprocess communication works like
> that, but I think pipes are an excellent idea for that.
you can use the gui clipboard from within vim.
you simply use its name ("*) before copy/paste.
see ":help quotestar". you may easily copy the
current text object (word, sentence, paragraph)
to put it right there with one function key.
whatever shortcut you want - it is you who decides.
and it *must* be you to change vim's configuration.
it all depends on your own editing habits.
no interface can assign all possibel nice thing
to any key - unless you are get yourself one
of those keyboards with *hundreds* on keys.
my advice:
monitor yourself. what commands do you need?
how do you do it so far? write it down.
ask for advice to amke it more efficient.
take the TIME to look at some howtos, even videos.
ask a friend, ask the local community,
ask the virtual community online.
follow the edvice you are given.
train yourself some commands.
for repetetive tasks - try to find an abbreviating command.
it may need to create a function and bind it to a key (sequence).
see also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9m3g5J-XA
take a look at some of the plugins.
try to do the same task in another program.
and if no program gives you everything - use several.
if you must have everything in one program
and you cannot find one - write your own!
or try to do the same with the help of others.
programming is not a crime. (well, not yet.)
Sven
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> It is funny to see that the person responding to my 'empty'
> recommendations also does not provide anything meaningful, in that
> sense, but merely questions my experiences and opinions ;-).
well.. that's what happens when you follow someone who does it that way.
yes, you succeeded in side-tracking me. congratulations!
but at least you should have updated the subject accordingly.
so i did now.
> Also, I do not think that personal experiences require
> "evidence" unless I would want to pose it as a universal
> truth or anything, which I don't have any desire to do.
well.. i'm glad to help with a particular problem.
but i think the problem is yourself. blaming effects to
happen when you mistype is hardly a problem of the program.
it is unfortunate that many programs do not have an undo.
but vim does have a thousand undos by default. it also
offfers a redo command. you can go several ways with this
in an undo tree - and it is persistent to editing sessions.
the only thing you are missing here is how to use it.
there is documentation galore. you just need to learn it.
> But to the questions. It is pretty obvious that in any regular
> editor, search and replace (of text, or even patterns,
> sometimes) is a very simple task to perform. You go to a
> visible menu, select a visible option, fill in a few visible
> field with visible options.... and in Vim you have to remember
> to do :s/text/text/ig or something like that. Or is it
> %s/text/text/ig ?. I don't remember. Now. I like Vim's visual
> mode but I don't know much else that is that easy. It is a bit
> like Linux's "info" system, but Vim is easier than that :p.
by "regular" you mean "the way i am used to", right?
so you want an interface to pop up with different text
areas for the search string and the replacement string?
and a button for "ignore case" and "ask me every time"?
how to navigate around this in an environment with mice?
TAB and shift-TAB perhaps? all these things within GUIs?
how about an interface where all these things
can be down with exactly *one* keystroke?
answer: the command line. just put the search
and replacement string right behind each other.
only requires separation with slashes. done.
just put the lines to operate on before it.
"1,23" or "23,42" or "42,$" ('$' = last line).
the '%' is the abbreviation for "all lines".
otherwise it simply operates on the current line.
these are *concepts* - and you will find that
other programs are also using it. coincidence?
anyway - you need to remember this.
as with *everything* you do, right?
if you however do not WANT to remember this and
you think popup dialogs are the way to go, well,
it is right there with every other program, right?
you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
reason why it hasnt been added. one of these is
the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
one is that it should work on terminals as well.
> The whole idea of making a lot of key press mistakes is because
> the environment allows you to really quickly do various tasks.
> So it is not a contradiction: the mistakes result from being a
> fast typer and Vim does not put any hinderness or obstruction in
> the way of working really fast. So obviously in that context if
> you press a lot of mode switches you regularly enter a text
> input when you are accidentily in a command mode.
bzzt!
you keep talking about mistakes.
but who makes them? you do!
vim indeed has not been designed for you
to mistype and still get the same results.
if you are asking for that then you may as
well go trolling with this everywhere else.
vim has just two modes really:
in one it works - and in the
other you are simply mistyping.
> Which then does things you do not want and you don't even know
> what commands you just executed, just that you need (sometimes)
> a way to undo it again. Undo is your friend, but sometimes it is
> the only thing that keeps you floating ;-). There is a
> difference ;-).
> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
that's *your* task. besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
> I still don't know how to copy text from one file
> to another except by doing :e or :f filename which
> always replaces the current file, I believe.
this is not a matter of belief.
you can switch buffers with *surprise* "buffer" command - ":b"
> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> and wish I had a regular editor.
a *regular* editor? well, the text editor
compendium lists 200+ of them. use one!
> and normally I (still!!!) use various different
> (Putty, e.g.) terminals to copy the text
> using the regular desktop I am working in.
so you are using an external program to copy+paste? why?
because you do not know how to use all those
nifty commands for copy+paste built in already?
come on.. you keep showing your ignorance here.
you need to unplug that mouse for a week or so.
there are plenty of commands you copy+paste text.
> And then when finally I was working in like jEdit
> again, I was heaving so many sighs of relief ;-).
well.. use jEdit then?!
> But I regularly do PHP editing in Vim. I have never saw fit to integrate any
> thing outside into it (compilers, other..) so my workflow is pretty bad, but
> it is enough when you can just reload a webpage from your home computer ;-).
> It definitely beats having to reupload changed files every time.
read up on ":help quickfix"..
> But I seriously sometimes would download a file, using whatever difficult
> means because a PHP file is not easily downloaded when it is executed, then
> change it (copy paste stuff) locally, and then find a way to scp it back.
> All very tedious and arduous, but it was a better spending of
> time for me than learning the Vim way at those points or moments.
so the other programs you use make this easier? how so?
> And that is just the way it has been for me.
until you find out and use something like sshfs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSHFS
or maybe www.emacswiki.org/TrampMode
> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is
> not exactly my favourite pastime, eventually especially
> when you forget how to do a certain thing again because
> it never quite makes it to muscle memory.
yeah.. reading up on how to do things more
efficiently doesnt seem to be your thing.
but that makes *everything* in your hands look bad.
until one realizes that *you* are the problem here.
> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly
> relaxing compared to having to do such a thing in Vi.
> Arrow keys always do what they should, I don't have to
> remember HJKL keys if the arrow keys don't work for some
> reason as well as being bugged by which of the BWE keys I
> need this time (I make so many 'mistakes' in that).
yes, i do agree here: the strength of this editor
is that it displays some commands always on screen.
that why i gave pico to beginners first. easy start!
and i also supported it to be rewritten as nano
which separated it from the pine mailer/newsreader,
gave it a free license and a lot more commands, too.
however.. even nano doesnt have a
concept of number prefix to repeat things.
it does not have the dot operator
to repeat the last change command.
it does not have filtering and..
a lot more. that's why i use vim.
to give an example, i wrote it down:
http://www.guckes.net/pico/vs.vi.html
vim has way too many commands to display -
and its strength is in the *concept* of
combining commands (such as 23yy and 42dd)
which simply cannot be easily shown on screen.
think of the "vi mug" - even this cannot show everything.
a "vim mug" to show all commands would probably
be the size of a bath tub or even a pool. (i know..
i have written a few command summaries myself.)
> The things that work fast in Vim are the easy things: dd p
> But in a different editor you would shift-down-arrow,
> ctrl-x, down-arrow, ctrl-v. More arduous, but easy.
..and deleting 42 lines is simply "42dd".
how do you do this is another editor
without counting in your head or
looking at the lines numbers?
my point: the prefix number for commands is a very
poweful concept. alas, nano/pico dont have that.
> And something you do automatically.
... once you have learned it.
this is not a feature of the program -
this is a feature of your *brain*.
> I would say the power of Vim's command is also its
> downfall or its nemesis. Because of being able to
> do impressive things with short commands you are
> enticed or induced to do these things very fast.
> This means you get into a higher mode of
> concentration and ..speed. Even exiting the thing
> is the quickest thing ever with a quick :wq
.. or just ZZ.
would you rather opt for more? or something else?
you can certainly have that if you want. just map it!
> Regular editors are not so easily closed
> and reopened, especially on a desktop.
> It makes no sense to do that on a desktop.
huh? your statement doesnt make sense.
> So on a desktop you often have to save the file,
> alt-tab to the right window where your shell is
> (commandline) which is sometimes hard to find, etcetera.
a shell/terminal is hard to find
when you are using a given environment
where the authors agreed to hide it.
a terminal can be opened on quite a few systems with
a shortcut (ctrl-alt-t is a frequent example) - or
with whatever shortcut *you* want. just make it so!
i mean, if you really this often then you
simply make it accessible easily, dont you?
> Unless and until you the start integrating everything into
> the editor or IDE itself, which then becomes a bliss, but
> it still lacks the power of a real editor like Vi. Because
> then you are bound and chained to that particular IDE.
you are not chained to do anything.
you are just limitd to your abilities.
> And it is no longer a component you can build into a wider
> solution where you are free to choose the components you want.
yes, you are not free - when you dont know what you can do.
> It is just that I just haven't had the time or need or
> opportunity to invest a lot of time into making Vim my
> default workflow component across a network link. I would
> never use it on a local computer because usually I would
> prefer desktop editors for that. I just like the idea of
> working on e.g. a development server with vi for editing.
wrong again. you didnt take the time. again - your fault.
and you can choose whatever as your environment - and
again this is NOT a built-in problem of vim. it's you.
> I just lack and lacked a good copy-paste mechanism.
"ayy use register 'a' to copy the current line
:b 23 switch to buffer 23
"ap use register 'a' to paste its contents
^W ^W switch to the window below the current one
42"ap paste 42 times the contents of register 'a'
there is a register (read: clipboard) for every letter.
so 26 clipboards altogether. been there for decades now.
and they are retained in the viminfo file - if you wish.
why would you use the system default clipboard instead?
which of your other programs have more than two clipboards?
built-in? in the smallest version? for years? name one!
> I believe I will never learn the Vim way and I don't need to,
> a desktop environment should or would be sufficient I believe.
wait.. you already have something better than vim which
suits you? then why the hell complain about vim at all?
just use it - and tell us about it. what is better?
and please explain *why*. give some examples!
> But in that case I am seriously looking into thinking
> about having a way to get this information sent over
> the link into my own clipboard, for instance.
"if your only tool is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail."
> Currently I am writing this in KDE (Kubuntu 15.04, their new
> alpha version 2) and it has a reasonably good clipboard tool.
> Perhaps we could in the end devise a way for such a program
> like Vim (and I would not mind programming on it) in
> combination with a shell (likewise) to get a mechanism where
> these copy-pastes are actually processed from the editor into
> the shell, from the shell to the terminal, and from the
> terminal to the receiving client. I mean, why not.
you are not the first person to think up something like this.
and there are a LOT of tools out there which already do this.
have you never tried looking this up?
> I am doing a lot of coding on telnet and ANSI. Perchance
> I will eventually learn of a way, when I have enough knowhow.
"coding *on* telnet" - a telnet program?
or are you using telnet to log in?
(clear text? no encryption? uh-oh.)
> Ideally I would really want to have a pipe like that. You
> could even pipe the text into a unix pipe and the terminal
> itself will read it when configured, or whatever. I don't
> know how (unix) interprocess communication works like
> that, but I think pipes are an excellent idea for that.
you can use the gui clipboard from within vim.
you simply use its name ("*) before copy/paste.
see ":help quotestar". you may easily copy the
current text object (word, sentence, paragraph)
to put it right there with one function key.
whatever shortcut you want - it is you who decides.
and it *must* be you to change vim's configuration.
it all depends on your own editing habits.
no interface can assign all possibel nice thing
to any key - unless you are get yourself one
of those keyboards with *hundreds* on keys.
my advice:
monitor yourself. what commands do you need?
how do you do it so far? write it down.
ask for advice to amke it more efficient.
take the TIME to look at some howtos, even videos.
ask a friend, ask the local community,
ask the virtual community online.
follow the edvice you are given.
train yourself some commands.
for repetetive tasks - try to find an abbreviating command.
it may need to create a function and bind it to a key (sequence).
see also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9m3g5J-XA
take a look at some of the plugins.
try to do the same task in another program.
and if no program gives you everything - use several.
if you must have everything in one program
and you cannot find one - write your own!
or try to do the same with the help of others.
programming is not a crime. (well, not yet.)
Sven
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