Re: StackExchange is a sad thing too

On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 5:31 AM Marc Chantreux <mc@unistra.fr> wrote:
>
> I Ben and thanks for sharing this feeling,
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 08:24:16PM -0400, D. Ben Knoble wrote:
> > > thanks for this pointer. so sad those questions arise in stack* as we have a
> > > user mailing list.
> >
> > I'm sorry to hear you feel that way; the goal of the StackExchange
> > project was to create a commons of high-quality resources (much like
> > Wikipedia has).
>
> Wikipedia came out to fill the gap of collaborative places to edit
> articles.
>
> StackExchange just split communities because previous tools (mailing
> lists, newsgroups, archives and FAQ) were so much more convenient but
> in the early years of this millenium, lot of people came to internet
> with no idea of habits and customs of the technical communities.
>
> If it was ignorance, that's very sad. If not, I'll be happy to learn
> abou arguments that was worth splitting communities.

Again, I don't think StackExchange intended to split communities: see
some of the initial posts about it [1]:

> > Stackoverflow is sort of like the anti-experts-exchange (minus the nausea-inducing sleaze and quasi-legal search engine gaming) meets wikipedia meets programming reddit. It is by programmers, for programmers, with the ultimate intent of collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world. No matter what programming language you use, or what operating system you call home. Better programming is our goal.

Rather, I'm glad that StackExchange created new communities.

> > I think the linked examples are good examples of this
> > (though if you visit the home page you will find more sand than pearls
> > these days, at the cost of having helped a great number of people).
>
> Did you try newsgroups or mail archives? did you enjoy having your own
> local workflow with mbox mirrors indexed so you can use mutt of
> maildir-utils to query them, add copies of posts or threads in your
> notes and things like that?

Rather, I came to the Vim mailing list as a reader (and much later,
writer) only after having spent almost a decade on StackExchange. When
I "came into tech," I didn't have many guides. Sophisticated mailing
programs weren't (then) on my list of things to learn and master,
though as I'll return to in a moment are part of my recent search for
digital control.

So, while there are probably differences in StackExchange and other
things: perhaps we ought celebrate those differences and communities
rather than be sad and angry about them? Indeed, StackExchange proved
a _gateway_ to more personal, in-control computing for me. Isn't that
wonderful?

To reply to some of Eric's points (not CC'd based on how I understood
their request): I think it's true that older technologies such as
email have become disused—at least in terms of competent power users
and the joy that is personalized email clients. I disagree that it's
due to sheer laziness, and I think that argument is destructive
(because it ascribes a moral failing to others rather than asking how
we might empower ourselves or others to change something).

One example of the disuse: I've been using email since I was a child,
but I didn't learn that I could set up my own client to work how I
wanted until I was a recent adult. (For the curious and technical:
https://git-am.io/ is a decent starting point.)

Another example: I taught my elderly grandmother how to use a computer
(and another how to use a tablet). Email was foreign to one, let alone
learning how to use a sophisticated "power user" program. Still think
laziness is the problem? I think it's a combination of power tools
having different tradeoffs (Vim is a power tool and is a surprisingly
different way to edit, making it a challenge for some learners) and
the lack of free material that spells out, slowly and painfully, how
to get from "what is email" to "digital control."

I frankly believe in and wish for you all to have control over your
digital lives. Situated software, retaining control of your data,
etc., are all great things.

Do what you can to make that easier for the rest of the world, please.

--
D. Ben Knoble

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